Cardinal at CUA: Obama is ‘Aggressive, Disruptive and Apocalyptic’
November 14, 2008 by Liz Grden
His Eminence James Francis Cardinal Stafford criticized President-elect Barack Obama as “aggressive, disruptive and apocalyptic,“ and said he campaigned on an “extremist anti-life platform,” Thursday night in Keane Auditorium during his lecture “Pope Paul VI and Pope John Paul II: Being True in Body and Soul.“
“Because man is a sacred element of secular life,” Stafford remarked, “man should not be held to a supreme power of state, and a person’s life cannot ultimately be controlled by government.”
“For the next few years, Gethsemane will not be marginal. We will know that garden,” Stafford said, comparing America’s future with Obama as president to Jesus’ agony in the garden. “On November 4, 2008, America suffered a cultural earthquake.”
Cardinal Stafford said Catholics must deal with the “hot, angry tears of betrayal” by beginning a new sentiment where one is “with Jesus, sick because of love.”
The lecture, hosted by the Pontifical John Paul II Institute for Studies on Marriage and Family, pertained to Humanae Vitae, a papal encyclical written by Pope Paul VI in 1968 and celebrating its 40 anniversary this year.
Stafford also spoke about the decline of a respect for human life and the need for Catholics to return to the original values of marriage and human dignity.
“If 1968 was the year of America’s ‘suicide attempt,’ 2008 is the year of America’s exhaustion,” said Stafford, an American Cardinal and Major Penitentiary of the Apostolic Penitentiary for the Tribunal of the Holy See. “In the intervening 40 years since Humanae Vitae, the United States has been thrown upon ruins.”
This destruction and America’s decline is largely in part due to the Supreme Court’s decisions in the life-issue cases of 1973, specifically Roe v. Wade. Stafford asserted these cases undermined respect for human life in the United States.
“Its scrupulous meanness has had catastrophic effects upon the unity and integrity of the American republic,” said Stafford.
Humanae Vitae (“On Human Life”) reaffirms traditional Catholic teachings regarding abortion, contraception and other human life issues. Pope Benedict XVI said in May it is “so controversial, yet so crucial for humanity’s future…What was true yesterday is true also today.”
Monsignor Livio Melina, president of the Pontifical John Paul II Institute for Studies on Marriage and Family, gave the opening address at the lecture and spoke about the importance of agape love to gain knowledge.
“Love itself is a form of knowledge, and this knowledge cannot be objectified,” said Melina. “It is a unique relationship between the believer and God.”
Stafford said the truest reflection of the love between the believer and God is that of the relationship between husband and wife, and that contraceptive use does not fit anywhere within that framework.
According to Stafford, the inner dynamic of a spousal relationship is much like the body itself, which ‘speaks’ in terms of masculinity and femininity.
“The experience of love introduces us in a specific way to moral knowledge,” added Melina.
UPDATED: Monday, November 17, 2008 at 3:40 p.m. Audio, Photo Slideshow added below.
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[...] Cardinal Stafford: Obama is ‘Aggressive, Disruptive and Apocalyptic’ http://www.cuatower.com/2008/11/14/cardinal-at-cua-obama-is-%E2%80%98aggressive-disruptive-and-apoca... [...]
Just because someone is a Cardinal doesn’t mean they can’t be a racist - they’re human, after all, not saints. There is no other reason for spewing this hatred about President (thank God!) Barack Obama. The Republican social policies actually increase abortions, so if you truly care about reducing abortion - not just chanting slogans and not having to think in a complex, nuanced way - you would vote for Democrats every time. The country under President Obama will truly be the kinder, gentler country we want. Read his actual beliefs and policies. There is no FACT-BASED reason for the things Stafford said - as an old white man, it’s possible he let his subconscious racist feelings show. President Obama’s policies, not McPain’s, are the ones that most closely adhere to Catholic social teaching. Reversing Roe v. Wade won’t end abortions. Making women feel less desperate - socially, economically, and emotionally - when they face an unplanned pregnancy will have the effect of making carrying their child more of an option for them. Isn’t that what pro-life supporters are supposed to favor? Or is it all about making public displays, waving signs and praying on sidewalks? Think about it.
A bit over the top, to my mind.
MaryW: “A bit over the top, to my mind.”
Not at all. It is this attitude that led to the kind of religious and moral complacency among Catholics that this country has witnessed for the past 35 years. That and the silence of the clergy - until now. I applaud Cardinal Stafford and other bishops who have raised their prophetic voices against the anti-Gospel, anti-Christian policies of President-Elect Obama and most politicians in the Democratic Party. That remark is not an apology for the Republicans. They did not serve us well, but at least President Bush managed to outlaw partial birth abortions. Obama has promised Planned Parenthood that one of the first pieces of legislation he will sign is the Freedom of Choice Act, which will bring this great evil back. No, His Eminence got it right and we Americans got the leader that we wanted and deserve. Now those of us who have faith better pray that we do not also get the divine punishment we deserve by these actions.
[...] James Francis Cardinal Stafford at CUA (Text): Obama is ‘Aggressive, Disruptive and Apocalyptic’ Posted on November 15, 2008 by james mary evans Hat/Tip - The Tower Newspaper [...]
I once got to thinking about why the world is such a mess with the Catholic empire having been around for so long having so much power in so many depressed areas of the world. For two thousands years the world has suffered under the tyranny of Kings anointed by the pope and then the popes themselves. It was only when mankind put the Atlantic Ocean between European escapees and Catholic tyranny that freedom breathed for the first time.
New American born ideals that originated out of Jesus mouth never actually got a chance to flourish until the human race was able to free itself from the evils of the Catholic church. But the whole human race can’t migrate to these shores to free themselves from child raping priests and their royal entourage that they provide human fodder for to feed their lust for flesh, power, and money. And it’s clear the Vatican is not going to change.
Statements like Father Newman’s about Obama remind me of how badly we need to end Catholicism forever by exposing its true history rather than put up with its arrogance any longer. We only hear about the true nature of how priests diabolically perform the most degrading and despicable evil acts against children here in the US because the Constitution our forefather wrote insures we had the right to talk about it. The founders of this country were wise in knowing first hand the evils of the Catholic Church and worked very hard to make sure we would be able to tell future generations about it if we were ever strong enough to stand up to Rome.
But in other countries who still haven’t mustered the power needed to throw off the shackles of their Vatican slave masters, child raping priests still rule the ghettos where they pimp out children to the highest bidder. Poverty needs to end. But it can never happen with the world’s poor being handed over to the Vatican to molest as they choose.
Obama wants to end poverty so the Vatican sees him as threat to their perverted traditions. If there’s a God, the devil is crying foul because he sees His hand working through Barack Obama. And I suppose the pope is crying in his soup praying another Hitler to come along and bring back the old days when his conservative movement shined like thunderbolts at the center of a rising Swastika.
Those days are gone King Ratzinger, your world is coming to an end. And I hope you and your corrupt army of pedophiles get to watch it dawn from behind the walls of the worst prisons in the world.
It was stunning how little attention was given to this issue (abortion) during the 2008 election. Concerns over the economy dwarfed this issue, and it’s a bit odd that this Cardinal is saying these things now after the overwhelming majority of Americans chose Obama to lead us during these troubled times.
BTW, I found this story from UWIRE: http://www.uwire.com/Article.aspx?id=3541518 … nice job!
This has nothing to do with racism. it has everything to do with a no brainer . Murder , not of a adult of a infant. A coward society that kills a baby and then says they did not. The polatics of denial will fade as the silver lining becomes so thin there is no value. Then they will find them selves EMPTY on both sides. No monitary value or heavenly value only the rope will be left. EMPTY
ROFL! “Racism”!!! Oh and killing a baby is subordinate?!!!
Jesus said judge not others lest ye be judged yourself. Are you not Christians yet you disobey your Lords commands? You say Jesus forgives but you have no concept of the word yourself because you think you are forgiven but others are not so you mercilessly persecute woman who have for whatever reason that is between them and God given their unborn child back up to to Him before they are born.
Do you not think that Gods plan for this world, His perfection does not cover them and their actions in His judgment but only in yours? Do you think that your doing Gods work means He no longer has to do it for Himself anymore?
Perhaps it is time for God to retire and let religious political parties rule heaven and hell from now on.
You should give your hypocrisy some deep thought if you truly believe in an all powerful God whom you think you can tread on without fearing. Surely the God you worship and the one in the Bible are two different entities. Perhaps you worship another, the other, for surely Jesus words do not resonate in your heart.
I am baffled when people accuse those who defend life of racism. As a long-time sidewalk counsellor I have stood outside abortion mills in all kinds of weather talking to mothers who are white, black, hispanic, muslim, or any other race/religion you can think of. I didn’t say, “Oh, that’s a black baby, let them kill that one.” No…I prayed and worked as hard as I could to save every precious child whose misguided mom went in to kill.
Barack Obama is an Uncle Tom, the black character in Uncle Tom’s Cabin who served like the Jewish capos in the death camps. They worked for the master/master race to subjugate their own people. Blacks represent about 12% of the population; they have about 34% of the abortions. The black family is under particular attack and Obama has promised to help Planned Parenthood kill more black babies than ever. Most abortion mills are in the inner cities. Planned Parenthood’s founder, Margaret Sanger, was a eugenicist who considered the poor (and Catholics) “human weeds.”
Cardinal Stafford is right on target speaking with a prophetic voice. That some of you can’t see it shows your ignorance of both history and faith.
Mary Ann, I agree, and anyone who doubts the veracity of your statement that the black family is under attack should educate themselves at
http://www.blackgenocide.org/
Where they will learn the lessons from history before it is too late. Obama is helping Planned Parenthood carry water for Margaret Sanger, who admired the Nazis for their eugenics programs. Hers was a bit more sublte, but FAR more effective.
[...] Vatican official responsible for dispensing the fountain of mercy in the church offered an ominous impression of the state of things during a Thursday lecture at DC’s Catholic University of America: [...]
Ad Hominum: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem
His Eminence has some valid arguments based in fact.
Ultimately, it comes down to knowing a tree by its fruit. For those who take the time to do some digging in the President Elect’s background, his position on things of import to the people of the land, his voting record or lack thereof, and more, will begin to see a pattern.
What we can only hope for at this point is that the President Elect’s eyes, heart, and mind are opened by the reality he will get to experience every day with his morning coffee. The briefings on the world, the states of this world, and their relationship or lack thereof with the US should be an eye opener for him.
How much do we truly know?
First of all someone should monitor the messages on this site and delete the ones which obnoxiously spew the tired, sad tirades of Satan’s agents against the Church. It is amazing to me that those who wish that all faithful members and leaders of the Church were dead or imprisoned (so that they would never have to hear the voice of Truth) even bother to read articles such as this. (Although they do not read very well - who is Fr. Newman Mr Fontaine?)
It is so sad to see how many who call themselves Catholics make any excuse to justify their Faith-denying voting decisions. Doesn’t anyone remember their history anymore? Can this president or any president really supply a chicken for everyone’s pot? Is there really enough wealth for him to “spread around” and take care of all of the needs the young, giving money to students for tuition, who go into the peace corps etc, as well as provide universal health care, while refusing to use the natural resources of this country to truly make our nation independent? Perhaps all those ideas will have to take a back seat for a while anyway, since the very first order of this president’s term of office will be paying back those who helped put him in power. I mean what could help Obama’s supposed plan “to reduce abortions” more than to IMMEDIATELY reverse a presidential order so that our tax dollars will once again pay for abortions for those in the service etc. I mean Obama our new messiah already has decided that doctors who allow children to die slow painful deaths after failed abortions are not guilty of any crime or misdeed. He knows that the wealthy who don’t want the government to take larger cuts of their earnings are just unpatriotic for not wanting to let the President “spread their wealth” around. He REALLY just wishes to bring everyone together into one loving people agreeing with his agenda, and to see him as the all wise new messiah. He is just so good at rallying people around him and spewing these amazingly speeches which apeal to young and old, who are so addicted to the chant of “change” that they are completely unaware that they are part of a newest mindless mass of humanity . He sounds a lot like that young Hitler fellow if you ask me, and oh wait the Church was supposed to keep quiet then too. And oh yeah I must be racist for even thinking or talking like this, but I wonder why we hear so little about this black man’s white mother and white grandparents who actually raised him? Does his blackness cancel out the white half his heritage?
Cardinal Stafford is absolutely correct, our American agony in what used to be an amazing garden is soon to begin. May God have mercy on His faithful remnant!
[...] and Bishops are speaking up and have been spekaing up; the latest salvo from the Mitre is that of Cardinal Stafford. Kudos and well done, let us hope to hear more from other Bishops. Share and [...]
[...] Francis Cardinal Stafford head of the Supreme Tribunal of the Apostolic Penitentiary gave a lecture on November 13 at the Keane Auditorium at Catholic University of America last week titled, “Pope [...]
Ridiculous and embarassing. Over the top, radical, hate mongering and uninformed. Do these guys ever take a stand on the death penalty or the many other ways that life is destroyed? Or does right to life end on the delivery table? Have they ever heard of the seamless cloak of life? This sounds like fear talking and it can’t be taken seriously.
Yawn.
I think that some of the leaders of the church are resorting to fanaticism because their efforts have not paid off and they simply refuse to look at in any other way. However, the statements, emotions, accusations, predictions, or what ever you wish to call all the recent rantings, are flawed to the very core. Frist, the statements of Cardinal Stafford would lead some to believe that the other candidate, in this case McCain, professed some adherance to the Catholic Church’s stand on abortion. The fact is, McCain supports abortion in the case of rape and threat to life of the mother. This is not the Catholic stance. OH, they may attempt to make the arguement that it makes McCain the lesser of two evils, but I am not sure that one is called to decide between the lesser of two evils in Catholic teaching - evil is evil. (I do not say that this is my stance on any of this - just pointing out how hypocritical some people may be) Yet, there have been no rebukes of McCain’s policy by any of the same heirarchy who are attempting to find their way to fame through this issue. Remember though, not all the heirarchy are in agreement with statements from those who fall into Cardinal Stafford’s likeness.
Second, radical, fundamental people like Stafford fail to see the real Gosepl call. They somehow believe that the making of laws is what they are called to do. The somehow believe that the mandate Jesus gave to disciples was to go out and legislate morality to the ends of the earth, condemning them in the name of hedonism, sinfulness and unholy actions. I am not sure why they continue to embrace and work for such a belief. The reality is, Jesus did not commission his followers to be lobbyists, legislators, legalists, or anything else that had to do with human laws. Jesus commissioned his followers to go out and serve. If those who spend so much time, money and effort to change a law would go out and figure out ways to convert one heart at a time, as Jesus did, there would be no need to worry about human laws - they would become powerless over more people. The law does not say - you must have an abortion - it says people can choose it. Well, let’s give them another choice. Let’s work harder to provide a place for every girl or woman who finds herself pregnant and afraid. Let’s work harder so that no one has to doubt that there is help available. Let’s change one heart and mind at a time so that we work to eliminate abortion, not the law. And that is the problem - to many care only about the law and not the people of God. I wonder if Jesus would say - Blessed are you who lobbied and worked so hard to change the law! or if he would say - Blessed are you who gave a pregant woman a place to live, a doctor to take care of her and food for her and her baby! We could get busy today - and start reaching out as Church to people. OH, but I guess we are too busy condeming others, predicting the apocolypse, raising money to pay for the buses to take people to the Washington DC rally in January, making signs to say we oppose abortion, polishing the saddle for our high-horses, and all the other things that are so much more important.
Lord, help us to remember that the Church is entrusted to all the faithful, not just those in postionsn of power. Give us wisdom to stay focused on your Word and lead us in the ways that will fulfill our commitment to the mission of your Son. Amen
I have lived in a country where abortion is outlawed. Women were ostracized when they became pregnant. They were kicked out of school. If there is compassion for the unborn the Church should be the strongest advocate to ensure these women can complete their education so that they can have a chance at a decent job and means of supporting another life. With out a practical answer to how to help women support themselves with a baby (education, jobs, health care) the Church’s stance on abortion will never gain majority appeal in the US. Yet Obama’s stances on all these practical matters merited no discussion by Cardinal Stafford.
Mary Ann Kreitzer,
Are you clinically insane? Your Church has whored herself to a party of eternal war and torture and taken away rights that English speaking people have had for 800 years.
Tell me, how do you and the other Catholics excuse the fact that the US army, by it’s own admission, has burned Iraqi children to death with white phosphorus powder?
It’s apparent that the only form of life the Catholic Reich respects is unborn life because it can’t disagree. Meanwhile you murder cancer patients who happen to be gay because you demand that they have inferior access to life insurance.
In the words of Joseph Biden, “This is a joke, right?”.
Nobody expects the Spanish inquisition! is all I have left to say.
To the rational people out there:
God has NOT given us a proclamation regarding embryos and fetuses. To say He has is intellectually dishonest.
The issue here is one of using terms that make your case sound good, but upon further reflection, there is no scientific or other basis except your own opinion.
Some BELIEVE abortion is murder. So, they call a fetus a baby or a human or a person. Others (in religion) BELIEVE the fetus is NOT a person and does not have rights. Science cannot answer that question. Without a transcent authority to tell us when personhood begins (remember Jesus and the Bible do NOT talk about the “soul”—that’s medieval theology), or whether personhood entails an absolute right to not be aborted, we aren’t going to get at the truth about whether or not abortion is moral. But people cannot admit that their moral arguments are based on believe not fact or science or reality. They are right; you are wrong.
The Catholic Church used to have a nuanced position about politics, correctly believing that the goverenment is NOT an agent of the divine. Our founding fathers realized that many people came to this country to escape religious persecution and then set up colonies banning other religions!!! So, they wrote a magnificent constitution that says you can believe what you want but you can’t impose your beliefs on others. Now the Church is increasingly run by uneducated, irrational, and right wing leaders who are an embarrassment to the Church and its long tradtion of following civil rights progress (slaves, voting,
children’s rights, etc. ) Now they still discriminate against women (can’t be a priest because you don’t have a penis) and gays (contrary to science and common sense) by calling them “extrinsically evil” and, in my state, spending $500,000 to deny them civil rights while begging for money for retired priests! Unbelievable! And sad.
I just keep hoping the “Over the top” responses, including the “priest” are not representative of the CUA student body. They are some of the most uninformed and stupid comments I have ever read on what I think is a Catholic website. I wonder if that “Priest” is actually a Catholic. If he is, that fellow needs serious help.
If only the good cardinal were as adamant about the evils of war, executions, and torture with the same zeal he uses to lie about President-elect Obama. This is the real scandal of contemporary catholicism - the alignment with the fundamentalists who always espouse a distorted theology leading to the abuse of women and political accomodation with those for whom certain persons are expendable. These elderly hierarchs need to remember the exploits of their brother Bernard Law who is sheltered the reach of justice by the Vatican. Shame on these puny men with their myopic views and loyalty to one another rather than to the flock they are to nurture.
People like this man is the reason I do not practice any religion and I am proud that I have never indoctrinated any of my children to any form of religion. They are good, happy, fair and most importantly kind and fair to others. I would NEVER allow this man anywhere near my children because the words coming out of his mouth are venom.
Regarding those that want to use the ‘black family is in danger” argument. You are wrong. I think this argument is used to make us believe that by keeping abortion legal we are killing our own race. the truth of the matter is that the one group of Women who are not having children are White Women.
“Birth rates for non-Hispanic white women, at 1.9 per woman, continue to remain lower than the rate that would be needed to replace the population (2.1 per woman), according to the report that details fertility rates in 2006 for women 15 to 44.
“The Hispanic population is growing,” Dye says. “The black population is staying about the same, and the white and Asian populations are declining. They’re not REPLACING themselves. So the population is growing more diverse.”
This the main reason ( in my opinion) that you are hearing all this rhetoric about abortion and birth control and ‘traditional family”. Not because women are having abortions,but because White Women are not having children. This why Obama bothers people so much it has NOTHING to do with his politics it has to do with WHAT HE REPRESENTS and what he represents is changing of the landscape of America. Let’s face it people, people of color will be the majority of this country in the very near future and THAT IS WAS SCARING YOU.
The combining of relgion and politics always confuses me, but I want to propose a thought to this Cardinal and like-minded Catholics. Why don’t you all leave the USA and move to a conservative Catholic centred country where abortion is illegal? My top choice for you would be Guatemala. I find abortion a vexing issue, but I have little confusion about my desire to live in the USA. Those of you who find abortion simple and your relationship with the USA complex (”cultural earthquake”?) might consider acting up to your beliefs.
NICE!Tax them now!!
Until the Catholic clergy becomes even half - no, one-tenth - as obsessive about the death penalty as it is about abortion, I am going to continue to have grave doubts about its credibility on the subject. When I was growing up in the Catholic Church 45 years ago, I never - the operative word is NEVER - even heard the word abortion. And, guess what, women were having them. Somehow, over the past several decades, this one issue has to come to define the Church more than any other (well, other than clergy raping children, but that’s a separate issue), under the facile rubric of “life”. Baloney. The Great Schism is coming. American Catholics aren’t going to endure this distracting nonsense forever.
Interesting. Every respondent who disagrees with the Cardinal ignored the simple fact that abortion is murder and that Obama has publicly and repeatedly supported groups whose sole aim is to institutionalize that abhorrent act. Each attempted to salve his own conscience and justify his complicity in these murders by attacking others. Truth is universal, regardless of one’s political leanings. Abortion is murder.
My God, practicing Christianity in the Catholic Church, is a forgiving God. He sent his only begotten Son to save us from our sins. God gave us our mind and intellect and our freedom of choice. We are ONLY beholden to him for our actions. Catholics focus so heavily on the right to life however what about all the Republicans who support the death penalty, why do Catholics who vote for republicans who support the death penalty get to receive communion but those who vote democratic (right to life issues) do not? What about the incredible loss of life in these wars we are “fighting” that republican support? When the Catholic Church is ready to give up it’s charitable organization status and start paying taxes on the churches weekly collections, then you can tell me who to vote for.. Until then, if you feel so strongly about right to life, which should not be only abortion but should also be war and death sentences, get out there be the profit Jesus calls to us to be, let me see you in my town and towns across America not picking a candidate based on one issue but trying to convince both candidates about your beliefs of the sanctity of life, whether in the womb, in jail or in a war zone. Challenge yourselves to really follow in Jesus’s footsteps and accept all people but try and bring them home to Christianity!
If you are so concerned about suicide and the lack of respect for life, then get out there, invite EVERYONE to our Catholic church, pound the pavement, give them hope and a place to go for life, companionship and hope instead of rules humans, no Jesus, set upon the catholic church.
Move on, welcome in, be the church that Jesus hoped we would be!!
Well said father.
Jesus is love, not ” Barack Obama is an Uncle Tom”. May Jesus spare us from that kind of evil.
[...] of Denver and now Major Penitentiary of the Apostolic Penitentiary in Vatican City. An excerpt from the story in the Tower, which is the student newspaper at Catholic University: His Eminence James Francis Cardinal [...]
Upon reading Cardinal Stafford’s screed, I had to re-check it to be sure I was not reading a 19th-century anti-American diatribe. The Vatican’s past hostility to liberty and pluralism–as represented by the United States–is, unfortunately, a matter of record. One had hoped that after Pope John XXIII and the Second Vatican Council this temper of mind had passed, never to return. Alas, no.
I can only recommend that U.S. Catholics entirely cease from contributing to the ‘Peter’s Pence’ collection and instead divert the money to their parish, or to charities (including their local chapter of ‘Birthright’), the more local and specific their mission the better.
While I did not see the lineaments of a reformer in Pope Benedict XVI, I was under the impression that the knout he formerly wielded had been discarded in favor of sweet reason when he took up his present office. Evidently not. I see no reason in faith or morals for the continued support by American Catholics of a papacy that has degenerated into a kind of oriental despotism, and that seems as fanatically hostile to their country as the Soviet Union was.
Both Barack Obama and Bill Clinton said that they would sign a ban on Partial Birth Abortions if the legislation included an exception to “protect the health of the woman”. Republicans used that simple change in text as a wedge issue and called Clinton “The Abortion President”.
One of my great friends had to have open heart surgery directly after giving birth to save her own life. She knew the risks before hand and decided on the birth. I’m glad it worked out for all, but I would certainly be loathe to demand that she give birth even though the risk to her life was 50-50.
Imagine that your wife was given a 50-50 chance to die if she gave birth, but if she had surgery first, she could have birth again without such a risk. Would you abort the child or take the chance with your wife’s life? If you choose to save your wife’s life and abort the child, I don’t think Jesus woud condemn you… you were probably moved by Jesus’ compassion to make that choice in the first place.
As for others, it’s a matter of degree and it’s none of your business. Especially none of the business of celibate priests that have no “skin in the game”.
How does the Church speak its message of love and redemption through the false apocalyptic terror, the hysterical shrillness, the politicization, the blindness to all issues but one, and the rigidity of people like Cadinal Stafford?
I fear it will not be able to speak its true message until it finds people who value love over control and secular power.
I am a black 54 soon turning 55 year old caholic church and school female, who was told about this on another site, so I’m going to repeat this one more time , I said that this catholic faith works for me, and for those priests and nuns from my past who were in my life and are now deceased, especially Fathers Dayton D. Kirby, DeL -aney and Favors, who were exceptional men, who saw beyond everything and were so ahead of their times, and knew they were so loved by my family and our parish, SistersJoseph Ann and Pierre, same thing, women ahead of their times, I will say that if they were alive and heared this comment , they would know and not be suprised that it came from me,and that is what you priests, aux,bushops, archbishops, monsignors,cardinals, nuns and the Pope better do is say”Bless me God for I have sinned it has been how many? {Just Last Week}
since my last confession, what do we say in the mass? that I have sinned through my fault ,in my thoughts and in my words, in what I have done and in what I have failed to do ,The Catholic Church with all their faults,accusations
and blood on their hands, Do you Catholic Church after all these CENTURIES , really renounce SATAN, AND ALL HIS EVIL WORKS, AND ALL HIS EVIL WAYS?THAT IS JESUS’S AGONY IN THE GARDEN,
Most of the people on this blog speak of hatred. Look at what you have written and the see who is full of hate. How can these people say anything about someone else, they too are just as guilty.
“A priest” said:
“The reality is, Jesus did not commission his followers to be lobbyists, legislators, legalists, or anything else that had to do with human laws. … Let’s change one heart and mind at a time so that we work to eliminate abortion, not the law.”
Father, if American Christians had always taken your advice, you would have had an opportunity to free a slave when you moved into your rectory. (But what about her husband and children, who were sold to other masters?)
I guess you also condemned MLK and other civil rights leaders who campaigned against racist laws. And you preach against those who would outlaw the death penalty.
Or torture — better to show some compassion to the torturers and provide them with social services to help them deal with the real human problems that led them to seek benefit by inflicting pain on others. (But let’s be careful not to talk about the victims, okay?)
Good for you! It’s about time we started seeing these “Gospel values” applied consistently. Although virtually everybody I know in the pro-life movement spends a lot more time and money helping mothers (through crisis pregnancy centers, the Gabriel Project, the Rachel Project, etc.) than trying to change the law, it is so rare to find people like you who condemn pro-lifers for working to guarantee the human rights of the unborn in law, and who also condemn the political and legal advocacy for more politically correct causes. In fact, I never find anyone like this.
Why not? Apparently there is a real crisis of Gospel values out there — values like honesty, humility and fortitude.
“Rescue those who are being led to slaughter” … but only if you can persuade their captors “one heart and one mind at a time” …
Okay, I will speak my mind.
1. The Catholic Church’s foray into politics in this country is a further example of the philosophical, spiritual, and moral decay of this organization. It has gotten into politics because it no longer has the necessary spiritual connection and force to be otherwise. Therefore it is primarily a secular and political organization operating under the guise of a religious one. Not that there aren’t many profoundly and truly religious practitioners involved, but as an ORGANIZATION it’s primary concern is now more than ever, secular.
2. Abortion is not murder, period. But because Christianity is primarily exoteric these days no one is able to grasp (or even has an interest in) the subtleties involved in esoteric spiritual practice. Such esoteric spiritual practice is the real wisdom espoused by Jesus of Nazareth. Once one understands that the Bible is a result of ancient politics that stripped all mention of esoteric practice from the scripture, a different less childish view can be held. One can then start to see the similarities with other esoteric cultures and practices. Only then can one begin to understand the subtleties of birth and death.
3. The view of any religion that it itself has the exclusive and true view is itself pure heresy and is the naive residue of tribal cultures that still to this day refuse the modern reality. The absurdity of the Almighty being contained by the one true religion is lost in the secular exoteric narcissism of countless childish followers and their parental priesthood of crowd control. Yet so many of these religions would have you believe that God has forsaken countless millions. Nothing could be further from the truth.
Wow, this is totally amazing, we know that the Cardinal is not speaking of Obama himself but of all that follow the promote abortion mentality. The Cardinal’s words are but a few days old and already you can see exactly what he was talking about come forth. Read the above comment s and that is exactly what he was speaking of. The we hate Catholic crowd is already comming out with the let’s get rid of the church. The Prophecy already commeth true.
This man, yes, he’s a man, not god or Jesus … is a kook. And probably a KKK kook at that … hateful, rageful, spewing out his stuff as much as Palin does to instigate more hate and backlash. More bullcrap from these religious right wingers.
They’ll get so prolife, pretty soon, it’ll be an save every semen and fertilize every egg … as anything else is death. Any sex, even married, man to a woman, outside of procreation must amount to be stoning. I’m just waiting for these wacky Christians to unite with some Muslims to kill all of us infidels. Yeah, go terrorists, now in the Vatican too.
God, please save us from these people.
If they were so pro-life, maybe they do more to promote social justice issues. End wars. And so on.
But they’re just empty bobbleheads spewing hate as Jesus’ love.
John,
You wrote that “the Great Schism” [between Catholics in the US, and the rest of the Church] “is coming.”
The thought is laughable. When you were growing up in the Church 45 years ago, maybe Catholics felt boisterous and rebellious. Your generation has done its work well - most of you no longer go to Mass, nor do most of your children. In my experience, the bulk of practicing Catholics a generation younger (I am 31, and was growing up in the Church fifteen or twenty years ago) than yourself either support, submit to, or have no strong feelings about Humanae Vitae and related topics.
Nobody’s going to the barricades over this one, John. Sorry. If you like, of course you are free to leave the Church founded by Christ (or else, what’s the point, really?) and go to any one of the groups that has already committed schism. That would contravene our Lord’s express wish that we all be one (Jn 17:21), of course.
The argument that the Church isn’t as invested in the question of the death penalty is facile and tired. The analogy doesn’t hold because a convict’s guilt brings into the question an entirely different circumstance; to any reasonable thinker, the analogy only highlight’s the unborn child’s innocence. Moreover, how many criminals are executed in the US yearly? Compared to 1.1 - 1.4 million unborn children, the number is miniscule. Lastly, the analogy is usually hypocritical because those making the analogy aren’t often found on picket lines advocating for condemned criminals, either. The argument is just a way to attempt to trivialize the Church’s commitment to protecting innocent human life.
Of all the issues of the 20th century, the defense of innocent and vulnerable human life seems like the perfect one to which the Church should commit herself. In one hundred years, for better or worse, when this dark chapter of our national history is over, I will be proud to have been on the right side, and to have extended some small effort in contribution.
A last bit I’d like to add about your piece: you bring up, yet again, the abuse of children by priests. Right. Fine. Duly noted. Our priests our sinners. In your generation, you were perhaps hit for merely thinking an unpleasant thought about priests. In my generation, we have had no moral guidance from anyone whatsoever. I am grateful for the priest who speaks loudly against modern moral ills, and for the one who quietly counsels me in the confessional. I am grateful for their sacrifice, and for their dedication. I suspect the laziest of them has me beat. I am not going to throw in their faces their own imperfections, vices, or wickedness, let alone the sins of some small percentage of their brothers.
As far as I know, the Catholic Church is a haven and hospice for sinners of all sorts, being transformed in Christ, and reaching out to the world with truth in love by His grace, and was founded to be as much. It was not meant to be a group of people who never really do anything that bad, pillorying our leaders, and demanding that we all just go with the cultural flow - not to my understanding. If you are perfect, and would like to start casting stones first, John, maybe it really would be best for you to take your Great Schism and go elsewhere where you’ll be happier.
Janine, you wrote,
“If you are so concerned about suicide and the lack of respect for life, then get out there, invite EVERYONE to our Catholic church, pound the pavement, give them hope and a place to go for life, companionship and hope instead of rules humans, no Jesus, set upon the catholic church.”
Very well said. Of course, the principle that every human being is made in God’s image and likeness, and so is sacred and inviolable, is not a man-made rule. In fact, it is the foundation of exactly the sort of world we’d like to all live in. How can we say, “Respect and love everyone,” or even “Live and let live,” when we won’t even let them live? I am very grateful that the civil law and criminal law of our land protects my life by imposing sanctions on anyone who would harm it. I suspect that if you pause, you will feel likewise.
If human embryos and fetuses are human beings (what else are they? frogs? Lol.) then it will be very good to extend to them the same protection. In fact, I bet $50 bucks that nobody can produce a reason to take away those protections from the unborn that would not also take them away from you and me.
Just for the record, both political parties support the death penalty, and no presidential candidate was talking about immediate withdrawal from Iraq within a year of the election. That would be irresponsible and everyone knows it.
That said, I am not going to tell anyone how I voted. It does make me very sad that we as a nation decided about 35 or 40 years ago that we would solve our problems by killing them.
I’ve never read such ignorance. Cdl Stafford spoke the truth. I truly wonder if 9 out of 10 of these vitriolic responses were from Catholic people. Then again, they may be written out of self-justification. Worse still . . . . no I wont go there.
Well, Bobby Fontaine surely makes his position clear. He is an anti-Catholic bigot in the first order. While he attempts to educate the masses, perhaps he will include a few minor points.
1. The first 49 popes were murdered for their belief in Christ.
2. The Catholic church founded the university system (during the Dark Ages).
3. As for being against taking care of the poor, the Catholic Church is the second largest provider of funds dedicated to providing for the poor, the first being the US of A.
4. Please educate anyone who listens to you of the work of Mother Theresa.
5. 3% of Catholic priest engaged in terrible act with mostly young men. They were homosexuals, not pedophiles. And if 3% is enough to turn your back on the Catholic Church, then you probably would not have been a follower of Christ during Apostolic times. Afterall, out of the original 12 Apostles, 1 sold his identity, 1 doubted him, 1 denied him, 10 were so frightened that they hid during His crucifiction, Only John was present at the Crucifiction. That means 11 out of 12 did terrible things.
6.The Jesuits were considered the Society of Scientists because of their positive influence on science.
7. Please tell them of the story of Bernadette, who, after dying 150 yrs ago, lies in an open casket, without any preservatives, in perfect shape!
8. Don’t forget to teach them about Ignatius of Antioch who, prior to in the year 107, when he was put to death for celebrating the Mass, spoke of the true Body of Christ in the Eucharist
9. Don’t forget the persecution of Catholics during the Reformation when 10,000 Catholic priests were murdered by HenryVIII alone.
10. Fast forward to the year 1931 when, during the Mexican Revolution, 10,000 Catholic priests and lay people were murdered in one day because they were Catholic.
After you are finished educating your listeners with these points, please ask for more. I can provide thousands of examples where Catholics have shaped the world, including the US, in positive ways but have been martyred for this help. I offer to help you so you can spare your listeners the indignation of having to listen to a dope!
[...] reported in the The Tower, the student newspaper for the Catholic University of America: “For the next few years, [...]
Thank God that Catholics voted for Obama, 54% to 45%, according to the Los Angeles Times (below).
Thank God that the members of our church aren’t bigots clinging to hate like this irrelevant old cardinal.
To claim Obama is “apocalyptic” is simply disgusting. And it is indefensible by any measure of decency in a civil, multicultural, multi-religious (and some with no religion), modern society.
Is this the level of discourse and respect the church - and by extension - Catholic University wants? To call the first African American President, who won in a landslide, who won the majority of Catholic votes - APOCALYPTIC?
How reckless, how inflammatory, how immature, how disgusting.
Obama has the potential to be one of the finest presidents this country has ever seen. And I could not be prouder as a Catholic to have voted for him, along with 54% of my fellow Catholics.
Stop the hate, cardinal. Stop the hate. You are embarrassing the 54% of us who believe in God’s great gift of DEMOCRACY, not theocracy.
http://www.latimes.com/features/religion/la-na-godgap9-2008nov09,0,6126052.story
STAFFORD SHOULD BE ASHAMED OF HIMSELF: HOW INFLAMMATORY AND HATEFUL. HE SHOULD TRY TO REMEMBER WHAT AGAPE LOVE IS IN THE FIRST PLACE AND KEEP HIS MOUTH SHUT!!
A DISGRACE AND A BIGOT IN BISHOP’S MITER.
DO YOU THINK THAT JESUS WOULD REACT THAT WAY TO OBAMA OR ANYONE, EVEN YOU????
SHAME ON YOU!!!
I WILL PRAY THAT THE HOLY SPIRIT OPENS YOUR MIND AND YOUR HARD HEART TO THE TRUE MESSAGE OF JESUS WHICH, OBVIOUSLY YOU HAVE TOTALLY CHOSEN TO IGNORE!!!!!
For shame, that the Catholic Church has allowed it’s highest ranking members to become so openly judgmental. I don’t recall where the Catholics teach that Cardinals or any one else is able to read the sins in man’s heart. I was raised to believe that these deeply moral issues were between God and the self. No clergyman has any business to question the complicated choices involved in voting in a Democracy. We live in an imperfect world and have imperfect choices. Does any man have the right to say that one candidate is better than another in the eyes of God?
At last a high-ranking cardinal has the courage to speak the truth about the apocaplyptic nature of the Obama presidency: it will look and sound like the great Beast of Revelations: anti-life, anti-human, anti-democratic and anti-Christ. We must resist this terror with all of our spiritual strength for Obama clearly and forcefully represents the ‘rulers of this present darkness’.
Leave women alone frauds!
“Rome and its Speakers” has nothing to do with GOD, SPIRITUALITY or MORAL. Let’s end this bull.
Rome is infiltrated with God forsaken World Order cons of all sorts who have one thing in mind and its ONE WORLD GOVERNMENT. Had any government or religious institution been against ABORTION they would have first made sure WOMEN WERE PROTECTED. Law does not protect women in any way. Rapes of women and little girls happen every 4 min. on this God Forsaken planet and it is and always has been treated as ISOLATED cases! Pornography which encourages all forms of violence against women showing them as cold, ignorant, unfeeling creatures is not being controlled by the justice system well, as far as Religious orders have played… when did they protect women? On burning stakes?
Come on, people, wake up!
Charles, your statistic is correct. Considering all Catholics, Obama won. But counting good Catholics who practice their faith, John McCain won by about 8%. This is because practicing Catholics by and large realize that nothing compares to killing 1,200,000 million children a year. But if you don’t attend Church, you don’t hear the Gospels, you know nothing about Church teachings, you fail to grasp the connection between the Old Testament which contains the New Testament and the New testament which fulfills the Old. If you don’t go to Church you know nothing of Apostolic Succession and the authority that the Magisterium possesses. I, to, will criticize the Church. The ignorance of the Catholic faith demonstrated by those on this site, many of whom are fallen away Catholics, is the direct result of poor Catechesis on the part of the clergy. Take for example the comments written by Dr. Maria. If she attended Mass, every three years she would hear the entire New Testament. As such she would know that Jesus turned over the tables of the money changers in the Temple. She would have heard of Jesus teaching us to try to change people by a series of moves, and if they still don’t listen, treat them as tax collectors. She would realize that Jesus taught us not to be concerned about war, as wars MUST occur. She would have read St. Paul, who, in 1 Corinthians, taught that if we are conscious of grave sin, receiving Holy Communion is profaning the Body and Blood of Christ. The Cardinal is doing what he is supposed to do, to teach that certain actions have grave consequences for which we may be held accountable. You see, Dr. Maria, the Cardinal couldn’t care more about the salvation of each of us. And the people who support abortion couldn’t care less.
Bill Ronner, how DARE you judge the “good Catholics who practice their faith” from the presumably bad Catholics who do not.
Who gave you the right to sit in judgment of your fellow Catholics? Seems to me only God himself can judge. I don’t remember anything in the Bible about Bill Ronner sitting in judgment. In fact I sorta remember Matthew saying the exact opposite. Something about that log in your eye…
Sorry, sir, but you do not get to decide who is a good Catholic and who is not. Your response tells us everything we need to know about you, and it destroys your credibility.
Are you trying to impress Jesus? Are you trying to help him out?
“Gee, Bill Ronner,” said Jesus. “It’s a pretty busy day for me sitting in judgment on November 4. Can you help me out? Just let me know who the good Catholics are.”
“Hey, JC,” replied Bill Ronner, “no problem! It’s easy for me to tell you who the good Catholics are!!”
Also, mighty Bill Ronner, please explain why you think that according to your statistics (which you did not document), only 46% of “good Catholics” voted for Obama?
Are those 46% of “good Catholics” good but stupid? good but ignorant?
Please explain how any “good Catholic” as judged by you could vote for Obama?
Doesn’t voting for Obama, by your definition, make you a “bad Catholic”? Or can a “good Catholic” vote for an apocalyptic candidate, according to you?
Please, sir, explain. I think all of us, including Jesus Christ, are pretty interested to hear your rationale.
Charles, thanks for your response. I love you guys who roll out the argument that we can’t judge others, yet you judge Obama as a good guy and the Cardinal as a bad one. Unfortunately, you misunderstand the Gospels, probably because you don’t go to Mass very often. So here it is. You are permitted to judge the actions of others as good or bad. Hitler, for example was a bad guy. Agree? But we cannot judge who will be saved and who won’t. That is up to God, and God alone. But Jesus did say to the Apostles “those who listen to you listen to Me, and those who listen to Me listen to the one who sent Me”. Thus, when you don’t attend Mass, you ultimately rejecting Jesus and thus go into the category of a non-practicing Catholic, ie: a lousy one.
Bill Ronner,
You are a wise man! To judge my faith and the faith of 54% of Catholics as easily and self-assuredly as you believe Hitler to be a bad man. Permission to judge is granted indeed!
I think some of the people reading this will get a laugh from your bluster on that last response. (Here’s an old debate tip for ya - if you ever need to bring up Hitler, that’s a sure sign you are losing the argument).
So to keep the laughs coming, please reply once more.
Do you agree with the wonderful Cardinal that Obama is “apocalyptic?”
I assume you do. So, given that the Websters definition of apocalyptic is “the expectation of an imminent cosmic cataclysm,” I am wondering how much time you give us?
When can we expect total implosion of the cosmos? By definition, it’s “imminent” so do you think it will happen before the inauguration, or during the first 100 days, or is there a decent change the apocalypse might happen right as Obama puts his hand on the Bible to take the oath of office?
Conversely, if there is no apocalypse, during the first term, will you write me a letter saying you were wrong? If Obama turns out NOT to be apocalyptic, will you apologize for claiming that the first African American President was an “apocalyptic” candidate?
[...] election of Barack Obama to the presidency is a sign of the apocalypse, it [...]
Please don’t shower me with unearned praise. I am knowledgeable of my Catholic teachings because I have studied my faith. I understand why the Magisterium is authorized to teach and why the teachings of the Holy Father alone or in conjuction with the Magisterium are,under certain circumstances, Infallible. Each day Iattend Mass and listen tothe readings. Each day I am able to receive Holy Communion, the true Body and Blood of Christ. There are massive graces received through daily attendance.
The reference to Hitler was an attempt to demonstrate that we do indeed have a right to judge. To manipulate my reference to Hilter in any other way is disingenuous. As for whether the Cardinal is correct, I don’t know. I do know that Obama promised Planned Parenthood that he would pass the Freedom of Choice Act early in his presidency. This act would remove parental notification and remove the “conscience” exemption for Catholic medical personnel and hospitals. Thus, either these Catholics and institution will have to reject Christ or give up their professions. He is a very pro-abortion guy, very much an extremist. Of course, we have all heard of the Born Alive Legislation he refused to support. This law required medical personnel to give care to an infant “accidentally” born after an abortion was attempted. Obama voted against this act FOUR times. Before you distort his vote, let me add that he was afraid passing this law would create the impetus to overturn Roe. I guess his motto is “some must die so that many may die”.. Also, before you try to explain his vote, on one occasion in which no, the bill was identical to the one voted on in the US Senate, a bill which even the most pro-abortion democrats voted in favor.
Back to the apocalypse. Any way you define it, a rejection of the teachings of Christ could be considered apocalyptic by reasonable people. Thus could anything good come from the death of 1,200,000 in the US and 12,000,000 worldwide. Can anything good come from abortion of which 33% of the victims are black, yet blacks constitute only 12% of the population? Can anything good come from acts of which 650,000 victims are little girls? And can anything good come from electing someone with such a malformed consciience that he supports these acts? Shamefully, 54% of all Catholics, practicing or not, rejected the teachings of the Church. Can anything good come from that?
Truly prophetic words by the Cardinal. A combination of a pro-death commitment with Chicago-style political thuggery (i.e. Rahm Emanuel, chief of staff, sends dead fishes in the mail to his political enemies) by the incoming regime will be a test for all orthodox Catholics and other believers of good will. I am amazed at how gullible all of the “pro-Obama Cathoics” are in thinking that somehow, this new administration will do pro-life things. Obama is strongly pro Roe v. Wade, opposed the partial birth abortion ban (you know, the procedure whereby a baby about to be born has a scissor poked in his/her head, with the brains being sucked out), has vowed to sign the “Freedom of Choice Act”, and as a State legislator in Illinois, refused to allow on the floor for a vote a piece of legislation that would criminalize infanticide for babies who survived botched abortions. Now because he is going to be president, we are expected to believe that he will change his convictions? Doug Kmiec, an alleged Catholic & Law Prof who abandoned the pro-life movement to support Obama spoke at a local (Scranton, Pa. area) university prior to the election. I attended this event. He took the same line, and drank the same kool-aid as some of the pro-Obama posters on this forum. When he was asked about Obama’s support for FOCA, Kmiec’s response did not deny this, but said that we need not worry because FOCA “would not pass constitutional muster”. Great answer! I have heard from some local pro-lifers that Kmiec was passed over by the Republicans for a judicial appointment, and that he has been promised one by the Obama people. If true, that would serve to explian a lot!
Charles…take a little advice from George Carlin: Bill Ronner and his type love to mentally masturbate. They get off hearing themselves judge, mouthing platitudes
and generally stroking themselves until they are relieved! People who masturbate don’t engage others, don’t relate, don’t give and take. It’s all about them. That’s why they can’t convince anyone other than themselves.
And for you Bill, a little advice from George: try the real thing. At least at the end you will have something to show for it!
What is truly amazing is how the majority of the comments are political and have absolutely nothing to do with faith, God, the Gospel message, trust in Jesus or anything related. So many use the veil of religion to suport their political persuassion and agenda. Maybe the Cardinal is right in his apocalyptic prediction - but in the area of those who think that POLITICS = GOD or POLITICAL ACTION = SALVATION - it just may be the beginning of the end for such people to ever experience God. Jesus was right, we can’t serve two masters. So choose God’s way - let politics take care of itself. Let lawyers fight over the laws. Let the self-righteous condemn the actions of others. But if you want to know God, then serve God and no one else.
Bravo father! Our pastor this Sunday told us one of the “good men” of the parish came up to him after the election and was ranting about the election of Obama and predicting the end of the world! He then said: “I hope someone kills him!”
As some in the congregation gasped, the pastor said: “Oh come on. As if you haven’t heard that before!” Take many of the comments of the Cardinal and others on this site and the reasoning is the same. AND they think they are good
Catholics!!!!! Sad. The Pharisees are still with us. Again, an excellent, excellent
come father.
To Regis
You miss the hwole point. If “Christians” had lived by the example of Jesus, slavery would have disappeared long before it did. It would not have made it to America. If “Christians” had not lived by human laws, but instead by God’s laws, they would not have cared that it was legal to “own” slaves but would have seen each person as a child of God, created in God’s image and likeness. If “Christians” accepted the way of Jesus there would be no need to fight for women’s rights becasue “Christians” would be living Jesus’ model in spiite of whatever the civil law said. Apply it to so many of the human actions that continue to plague our world, and we can see how it would work. If “Christians” would see that God’s way is the right way, we would not care what many human laws say because we would be living Jesus’ law of love. The world is filled with things that need to be changed - we should not be spending any time trying to fight laws that say what we can do - those we can simply make obsolete by showing a better way. The only human laws we need to fight are those that say what we must do if they are unfair or are in contradiction to how we ae called to live. If they say women “MUST” have an abortion - then we need to organize and fight. If they say someone “MUST” be treated unfairly, we should become very vocal. But to spend all the money and resources that we do to fight laws that simply say we can choose to do something is a waste of time. Just show people a better way - and as human nature proves time and time again - they will want it. But as CHURCH, we have not done nearly what we should be doing to show that better way. Too often we simply want to say “NO” without giving any assistance to those who see no hope. As Church - we should care about human laws only when they prevent us from living God’s way. But we have grown lazy and think that laws take care of our responsibility. We need to remind ourselves that we need to trust in God’s ways - just as God has trusted us with all of God’s creation.
Yes!! Thank you, thank you father. The Truth is never easy to hear, especially for some Catholics, it seems, but that doesn’t make it less true. God bless you.
As for me, I see much fasting, penance, and prayer for our country in my future.
George - thanks and let’s just keep praying - and pointing out to the whole Church when needed - that yes, Jesus’ comments about Pharisees really do mean us. Too many say - well it doesn’t mean me.
Peace!
Remember always, yes God is a loving and merciful God but he is also a just God and every one of us will be givin what we desire. Those who truely desire God’s way will get to see him and those who do not want God’s ways will not. So who wants God’s way’s and who does not? Look at what you want and decide, you will judge yourself on the last day.
[...] President-elect Barack Obama as “aggressive, disruptive and apocalyptic.” The accompanying story reads: “For the next few years, Gethsemane will not be marginal. We will know that garden,” [...]
It seems to me that some, including priests, are missing the whole point of Catholic Social Teaching, or simply know nothing about it. It is for the hierarchs to teach the principles of Catholic Social Teaching, including the moral aspects, and it is for the laity to “put flesh” on those principles in society, via political action, legislation, etc. I recommend going to the Vatican website. You can download the entire Compendium of Catholic Social Teaching. Part of Catholic Social Teaching is that we, as Catholics, have an obligation to try and build a society which reflects the values of the Gospels. We have an obligation to build a society which makes it easier for it’s citizens to find Christ, and to save their souls. To not fight on issues involving intrinsic evil such as Roe v. Wade, partial birth abortion, infanticide, and embryonic stem cell research is to send a signal that we don’t care if our fellow citizens engage in the murder of the innocent, and, thus, we don’t care if they end up in Hell. That is NOT the message we want to send. If the government legislated that it is OK to go next door and murder your neighbor, am I to assume that it is OK for us not to fight that legislation because it does not COMMAND us to murder our neighbor? Please! We, as Catholics, have an obligation to be engaged in the politics of the day. We are not Gnostics, nor are we Christian Scientists. We do not see the Soul as “good”, with the “flesh” being evil, therefore justifying our lack of action in the political marketplace. Catholicism is an incarnational religion. Mankind is comprised both of soul AND body. To take a “hands off” approach to politics is to deny this, and it is to deny what Our Lord taught about the necessity of helping the “least of our brethren” (I would think that the unborn are in this category) in His discourse about the final judgement. Do we wish to be numbered with the “goats” who did nothing, or with the “sheep” who provided the needed help?
Another point: this accusation that pro-lifers “just say no” to abortion and leave it at that. I invite anyone who believes that nonsense to come up here to the Scranton-Wiles Barre, Pa. area, and visit the pro-life centers of Pennsylvanians for Human Life in Scranton and Wilkes-Barre. They go out of their way to assist unwed mothers who have decided not to kill their babies. My suspicion is that these “Catholics” who support pro-death politicians place their own “liberal” agenda above that of Our Lord.
Deacon Robert Behrens, since you mentioned stem cell research and HELL in the same sentence, I have a couple questions I hope you will answer:
Suppose ten years from now, you develop cancer and doctors give you 6 months to live. But there is a guaranteed cure that was developed through stem cell research directly derived from aborted embryos (NOT from the existing lines or adult stem cells etc - directly from abortions).
1. Would you refuse the treatment?
2. Do you believe all Catholics refuse any medical treatment that is directly derived from aborted embryos?
3. Would accepting such a treatment mean a Catholic would, in your words, “end up in Hell” due to the fact that they directly benefited from the “murder of the innocent”?
4. Would you like to see the Pope instruct ALL Catholics to refuse ALL medical treatments that are directly derived from aborted embryos?
Please answer each of these questions DIRECTLY. Each one requires a simple YES or NO answer. Thank you in advance for your reply.
Another indication of Catholic Church loosing touch with the lives of real people. Luckily, some common sense true believers are beginning to make an impact by working with people from all walks of life and finding common grounds. You guys are mystical people; why can’t you be more faithful and believe that Obama might actually help us to be better persons? Is it so hard to look beyond this reproductive divide and see the humanity in people? The spirituality, hope and charisma are some of essences that the Vatican has been having difficulty offering to its followers since the passing of Pope John Paul. Jesus is shedding tears watching his children among some of the clergy spewing hate and divide…. sad indeed.
Charles,
1. No, my salvation is more imortant than my temporal comfort
2.Yes
3. I don’t know. One’s salvation is God’s decision, not ours. We can only do what He teaches and follow the teachings of His Church, which he told us to do.
4. The Church teaches what Chrst teaches without regard to my personal beliefs.
These answers are dependant on what the Catholic Church teaches. If the Church says my answers are wrong, I will yield to the Church.
In my position, I may be required to perform homosexual marriages. I will not and may be removed from office. So be it!. I am a Catholic who follows Catholic teachings to the best of my ability. I am not a cafeteria Catholic who picks and choses according to what make me feel good. And I won’t ask you to do anything I won’t do.
Dear Charles,
In answer to your questions:
1. Would you refuse the treatment?
YES.
2. Do you believe all Catholics refuse any medical treatment that is directly derived from aborted embryos?
YES (assuming knowledge of this to be the case).
3. Would accepting such a treatment mean a Catholic would, in your words, “end up in Hell” due to the fact that they directly benefited from the “murder of the innocent”?
In line with received Catholic moral teachings, assuming culpability on the part of that person (full knowledge of the seriousness of the sin, and full consent to that sin, anyway, understanding the punishment for grave (mortal) sin being an eternity in Hell), the answer would be YES.
4. Would you like to see the Pope instruct ALL Catholics to refuse ALL medical treatments that are directly derived from aborted embryos?
YES.
The principle invoked by the Church in its Moral Teachings is hard and fast in this area, and has been the same since the Apostolic Age (try reading the Didache)-it is NEVER justified, under ANY circumstances, to directly take the life of an INNOCENT human being. Killing of embryos for medical research IS the direct taking of innocent human life. With all of that being said, it must be reiterated that many advances have been made with the use of adult stem cells, whereas, little, if any progress has been made in developing cures for various diseases and conditions with the use of embryonic stem cells. As Sen. McCain stated during the campaign, the advances with adult stem cells have rendered the question of using embryonic cells to be moot. But, even if cures were developed using the embryonic cells, we are still talking about murder of one human being so that another would live. Am I to assume that if you could save yourself medically by taking an axe to your next door neighbor, you would do so?
As a catholic educatied individual I am so tired of the church getting into politics. Hopefully this generation of cardinals will be over shadowed with those who have a more liberal mids. I am tired of how the church discriminated against women in the priesthood and am tired of the church protecting the perverted priests.
I am still going to received communion but have cut off all financial support. The church helped defeit Proposition 8 in California and I am offended to think some of my money was given to this cause.
When will christians ever go away. How long does the world need to go on listening to these backwards forced moralistic policies which will eventually be seen as wrong, just like the old policy of charging money to get into heaven. Go burn some more books you neanderthals.
Bill Ronner, thank God you will soon experience some real consequences for your discrimination. I hope you are removed from your job. Your job must be performed by someone who understands and respects the laws of our democracy.
There are many religions practiced in the US and some non-religious people too. Religious beliefs vary but we all have the same rights - freedom to choose the religious beliefs we believe or don’t believe, and soon, the freedom to marry the person we love.
Gay marriages don’t need to be recognized by the church. But the state is in the marriage business as well. And therefore the state gets to make marriage laws regarding state-sanctioned marriages.
If you can’t follow the laws of the state, then you’ll need to find a new line of work. Simple. You need to learn that your religious freedom is not the same as the right to impose your religious beliefs on everyone else. This the USA, not Vatican City.
My side is winning. Within a generation, gay marriage will be legal nationwide. Just look at the numbers.
To Robert Behrens, Deacon -
It is still you who miss the point. You recite what you are fed without ever understanding it. You believe that literal translation of teachings encompass their meaning in totality. You become part of the problem by misinterpreting what is said. No one said “hands off” What is being said is to put your hands where it will matter. If you believe that there are still people who do not know whwere to turn, or that there is even anyone to turn to, you are living in another world. If you believe that legislation is what Jesus called for - you need to reread the Gospels. If you believe that there were no abortions before Roe v. Wade, you are mistaken. Jesus said when you fed another person, you fed him. When you gave shelter to another person you sheltered him. This is not “hands off” - - it is HANDS ON in a way that will matter. Work all you want to pass laws, protest all you want to close places of sin - - you will fail. Show people another way and you have a whole new world of possibilities - just as Jesus showed to those who needed it. Serve God with your heart - not a document.
Honora Laszlo Price,
Chanting slogans? You mean like “Change, change change!”? Because that’s about all that Barack Obama said.
Also, it isn’t racist what the Cardinal said if it’s true. The only people who are saying that it’s racist is the people who voted by skin color and not policies.
Plus, Obama has said constantly that the first thing he is going to do when he’s in office is sign the FOCA bill (Freedom of Choice Act) that will:
–Make it legal to have an abortion all the way to when the baby is born (any time during the entire 9 months of pregnancy)
–Make it illegal for hospitals, doctors, nurses or anyone else to deny a person an abortion due to views (religious or not). If these people or institutes refuse an abortion then they will be fired or shut down.
–Shut down Pregnancy Care centers that focus on adoption instead of abortion.
Does this sound like a kinder, gentler place to live to you?
Barack Obama is Anti-Life, Anti-America and Anti-Christianity.
That doesn’t sound like someone I want to run this country.
Deacon, thanks for answering the questions with clarity. Despite our disagreement I do appreciate that.
A few comments:
First, much of the “knowledge base” and understanding of how stem cells work was already derived from embryonic stem cells. So regardless of which stem cells and techniques are used going forward, the science that brought us to where we are today relied almost exclusively on aborted embryos. There is no room here for “revisionist scientific progress.” Therefore it seems to me the blood of murdered babies will always and forever be a critical and necessary ingredient to whatever cures are developed using the new methods. According to your reasoning, then, all Catholics should disavow any medical treatment that is derived from stem cell research. If I misunderstand, please correct my logic.
Second, the way science works is incremental. Progress is made and shared and other scientists build on that progress. Lots of embryonic research is being done elsewhere in the world and American scientists attend the same conferences, read the same papers, and benefit from knowledge gained by embryonic researchers even when designing research based on adult cells. It’s simply not realistic to separate the two. So even if you can accept past transgressions, you must acknowledge that without a complete worldwide ban, any Catholic considering any stem cell treatment will be still be connected to the embyronic research.. and therefore ALL stem cell treatments are immoral.
Finally, what an awesome recruiting tool for the church! I think Catholics would start practicing their faith more regularly if they understood the extent to which the church wants to deny them the amazing medical advances of our generation.
Your position basically becomes… I don’t care if there is a cure for your child’s cancer or your grandmother’s Alzheimer’s. If the cure comes from stem cell research, your kid and your grandmother should die not live.
Charles,
My answer to question 1 was incorrect. Yes, I would refuse the treatment. It is never licit to engage in evil even if the result is positive.
Bill, with all respect the questions were addressed to Deacon Robert Behrens, not you.
“Aggressive, disruptive and apocalyptic” is a little overwrought, don’t you think? I would say Obama is “corrupt, unprincipled and intellectually mediocre” but His Eminence sounds like he needs to cut back on the caffeine.
God Bless you Cardinal Stafford and all the Bishops that have spoken out since the conference. The Holy Spirit is hard at work here. To those that claim that abortion is not murder……that you were given life yet feel you have the right to decide if an innocent baby lives or dies! Only God has that right, not man. Yes, God is merciful and loving but God is also a fair and just God, just look at the Old Testament. Sadly, I fear this country will “reap what we sow” but I pray….”Father, forgive them for they know what they do”.
Thanks goodness the Cardinal has the courage to speak up for the Catholic faith. Obama’s embrace of the culture of death is a horrible thing. While I do not think he is evil I think he is being used by evil - anyone who favors abortion of life is being used by evil.
Don’t get fresh Charles. You need to know that practicing Catholics think alike. Also, your questions are read by everyone who posts on this site, as are the responses. Multiple responses should be encouraged. By the way, were you baptised a Catholic and fell away, or are you a lifelong Catholic bigot who feels compelled to impose your bigotted beliefs through a Catholic website? Why not just respect the Church that Christ started 2000 years ago? If you disagree, then fine. The battle will continue between the immoral left and the Christian Right.
If you were a Catholic at one time what drove you away? Be specific. Was it the gay issue, divorce, etc?
wow, you bigoted catholics really got this guy worked up, huh?
read it again!
———————————————————————————————————–
I once got to thinking about why the world is such a mess with the Catholic empire having been around for so long having so much power in so many depressed areas of the world. For two thousands years the world has suffered under the tyranny of Kings anointed by the pope and then the popes themselves. It was only when mankind put the Atlantic Ocean between European escapees and Catholic tyranny that freedom breathed for the first time.
New American born ideals that originated out of Jesus mouth never actually got a chance to flourish until the human race was able to free itself from the evils of the Catholic church. But the whole human race can’t migrate to these shores to free themselves from child raping priests and their royal entourage that they provide human fodder for to feed their lust for flesh, power, and money. And it’s clear the Vatican is not going to change.
Statements like Father Newman’s about Obama remind me of how badly we need to end Catholicism forever by exposing its true history rather than put up with its arrogance any longer. We only hear about the true nature of how priests diabolically perform the most degrading and despicable evil acts against children here in the US because the Constitution our forefather wrote insures we had the right to talk about it. The founders of this country were wise in knowing first hand the evils of the Catholic Church and worked very hard to make sure we would be able to tell future generations about it if we were ever strong enough to stand up to Rome.
But in other countries who still haven’t mustered the power needed to throw off the shackles of their Vatican slave masters, child raping priests still rule the ghettos where they pimp out children to the highest bidder. Poverty needs to end. But it can never happen with the world’s poor being handed over to the Vatican to molest as they choose.
Obama wants to end poverty so the Vatican sees him as threat to their perverted traditions. If there’s a God, the devil is crying foul because he sees His hand working through Barack Obama. And I suppose the pope is crying in his soup praying another Hitler to come along and bring back the old days when his conservative movement shined like thunderbolts at the center of a rising Swastika.
Those days are gone King Ratzinger, your world is coming to an end. And I hope you and your corrupt army of pedophiles get to watch it dawn from behind the walls of the worst prisons in the world.
The Catholic Church NEEDS to have it’s tax-exempt status revoked!
I just got done reading all the posts, and for the most part I am renewed that there is still some intelligence within our society.
Until I read the post from “A Priest”, I felt completely alone in my beliefs. I have been a Catholic since birth. I am in my late thirties. I have long since despised the kind of false preaching of Deacon Robert Behrens.
I believe that abortion is wrong, but I also believe that our God-given right of free will should be upheld and respected by all God’s children. I may not like what my brother or sister does, but I have no right to take away their opportunity to exercise their free will, whether their choice is to commit sin or not. The only judge is the Perfect Judge - God. If God tied His own hands by allowing us to have free will, then who am I to take that free will away. I, too, believe that in order to follow Jesus we must follow with our heart and change the world by our example of good as well as by our willingness to show a different way to live.
I am a sinner as all of you are. When I was a teen, I had an abortion. I deeply regret it today because I have long since felt the pain that it caused God. However, I asked for forgiveness through the gift of confession and know that I was forgiven.
Some time ago, one of my friends came to me in need of my opinion. She had been having an affair with a co-worker and had gotten pregnant. The baby was her husband’s, but because she was in love with her boyfriend (the affair) she was thinking of aborting the baby. She asked me what I thought she should do. I did not condemn her for considering her choices. I simply told her what my experience was and how it made me feel after. I told her that my heart continued to hurt and that I was sure that pain would never completely go away - even after being forgiven. I told her physically what she could expect, but also spoke to the emotional aspect. I was only honest with her without preaching my belief system. That same friend and I had a falling out and stopped talking. Years later, she sent me a letter thanking me for being honest with her. She didn’t abort that baby, but decided to keep it. She told me it was the best decision that she had ever made and that had it not been for me, she would have made another choice.
I take your time with this story to make my point that it was whether or not she had the choice to have an abortion that decided the outcome, but truth. I only spoke the truth to her. There are many women out there that face this decision everyday. Those women don’t need legislation to make the decision for them. They need the truth given to them gently - like Jesus would have done. At some point we have to reconcile ourselves to the truth that what one does with his or her life is between his or her God and him or her. All we can do is steer people towards the true teaching of Christ. Without condemnation or judgment.
I was already one foot over the fence. Then yesterday’s story about how I’m no longer welcome at communion. I thought “wingnut from South Carolina.” But to have the same basic statement come from a Cardinal makes me believe that either I have drifted too far, or they have.
I tend to think they have. Of the issues presented in this election, I weighed abortion. But too many other factors of our country have drifted to allow that to only be my choice.
I’m very sad.
People complained that the Pope didn’t speak out against the extermination of the Jews. Now someone is speaking about the dignity of life and the need to preserve it, and we get the reaction that the Germans would’ve given. Oh, how these fascists are now in control of our government, next thing you know, they’ll create a national police force (gestapo). Oh wait, Obama wants to create one. My bad.
Arizona you say? Sounds like a case of the bitters to me. Just because a candidate is articulate, intelligent and well put together and has out smarted the rest does not make him the “beast”! The Beast has sat in the White for eight very long years now. If The Vatican is such a divine predictor of Apocalyptic behaviors and traits, why the hell didn’t they see that Satan and his son had both occupied the highest office in the land all the while leaving us in complete ruin? WHY? Racism in the church I say. That is why!
Biblical Christianity will serve as an alternative to Liberalism.
[...] CUATOWER.com story on a Cardinal who called President-elect Barack Obama’s policies “apocalyptic” has gone viral online and has even been picked up by [...]
“Just because someone is a Cardinal doesn’t mean they can’t be a racist - they’re human, after all, not saints. There is no other reason for spewing this hatred about President (thank God!) Barack Obama.” - from a previous post.
This,folks is the mind and reasoning of the liberal.If you fundamentally disagree with their philosophies,policies and world-view then they call you names-like little children do.Disagree with Black Obama,and you’re a racist.
Bill, I am Catholic. Always have been, always will be. I am what you might call a “majority Catholic.” I voted for Obama, as did the majority of Catholics in the US.
Let me tell you about us. There are more of us than there are of you, but you seem to know very little about us and harbor a lot of disdain for us.
You said the 54% of Catholics who voted for Obama are the “bad Catholics.” I disagree. I think we’re the good ones. Did I mention, we’re also the majority?
We are the future. There are a LOT more of us among the younger age groups, so as time passes our beliefs will become the predominant ones.
We vote for gay marriage.
We use birth control.
We want women priests.
We want married priests.
We support science and stem cell research from embryos that were going to be aborted anyway… we want to cure our loved ones who suffer.
We’re able to consider lots of different issues when we vote, not just one.
We don’t think people with different religions are necessarily wrong, or destined for hell. We don’t presume to know.
We love all our neighbors. All of them.
We treat EVERYONE with love, the way we want to be treated.
We don’t systematically abuse children and coverup for those who do and offer jobs at the Vatican for Cardinals about to be indicted.
We rejoice in the tremendous milestone of racial equality - a black man elected president of a country recently controlled by Christians who owned slaves.
We don’t agree with Cardinals who say our first black president represents the destruction of the cosmos.
We don’t defend the church’s past - the wars, the racism, the imprisonment of those who dare suggest the earth revolves around the sun.
We don’t think it’s moral not to use birth control when half of the population lives in poverty without clean water.
We don’t think it’s moral to spend millions of dollars denying civil rights for the gay children God created in every society spanning thousands of years.
We believe those gay penguins are born gay. We don’t think those gay penguins are sinful.
Despite it’s best attempts to stop science and progress and changes in policy, the church has been forced by the turning wheels of humanity to change again and again for two thousand years. And it will continue to change.
I’m sure you miss the church’s ban on English mass, or the ban on interracial marriage, or the ban on astronomy, or the ban on marrying Jews, or the ban on getting divorced and remarried. But don’t worry Bill. These 80 year old guys running the place have lots of 60 and 70 year old backups. They’ll try to keep things in order as long as they can.
But I’m guessing one of the next several popes will be a black guy… hey, the church knows as well as any business the markets where it’s growing. And I have a funny feeling that the black pope would be more inclined to call the first black president to congratulate him, instead of proclaiming he represents the end of the universe.
Interesting post, Charles. I guess there are no truths left, only good feelings.
If Bill Ronner should be removed from his job for not marrying gay couples even though he doesn’t perform heteosexual marriages, I guess you support the following:
any town clerk, mayor governor, magistrate, religious figure from any belief system who refuses to perform gay marriage should be removed because gay marriage will be legal.
thus, since abortion is legal, any physician, nurse, physicians assistant, nurse practitoner and all medical personnel who refuse to participate in manifest grave evil should lose their license to practice their profession
Since we have then removed the “conscious exemption” then anyone who refuses to fight in the Iraqi war should be punished.
If your beliefs percevere, Catholic hospitals will close, the number of physicians will drop significantly, a nursing shortage will limit the ability of the remaining physicians to offer an acceptable level of care. Catholic senior homes will shut their doors rather than engage in euthanasia. Thus, seniors will suffer greatly.
So, at the same time Pres-elect Obama wants to offer socialized medicine, our countries ability to serve the poor will be dramatically cut.
With the lose of tax revenue of all those now put out of work because they refuse to do things which violate their consciences, we will have difficulty serving the poor in any capacity. Couple this with the fact that the Church run by all those dinosaus provides significant amounts of funding for programs which take care of the poor will be seriously limited because Catholics who practice their faith give more than those who simply talk about their faith, well, you get the picture…..
Perhaps the Cardinal is on to something.
I believe you are misinformed. There already is a Church that serves all of your wishes. It’s the Episcopal Church. Under the guidance of one of those of old men, Pope John PaulII, the Catholic Church expanded by 250,000,000, Under your type of leader, the Archbishop of Cantebury , William Rowans. the leader of the Anglican/Episcopal Church, that church lost most of their congregation (many of them becoming Catholics).
In all of your posting on this issue you have managed to only criticize the Catholic Church. Not one mention of Mother Theresa, Padre Pio, St Augustine, St. Catherine of Siena, the many St. Thersas, Pope PiusXII, Bishop Fulton Sheen, the Apostles and the millions of other great Catholics who followed the teachings of Christ.
Your are not a Catholic. You are an Episcopal. The stress must be massive, the anger dibilitating. But the battle will continue. We will win as Christ will not be morphed into someone who died for us so that we can mock Him and change His teachings. There is only one Word, and it will not change.
Deacon, I think you are better equipped to respond to Charles, but Tax Collector comes to mind.
Dear Faithful Follower:
What a beautiful, loving, Christian post. It reminded me of the powerful things I learned from the priests and nuns who taught me.
(1) Don’t listen to what people say, but how they say it. If it is hateful, fearful or angry, it is not the word of Jesus.
(2) In the Gospels, Jesus constantly insists that people are blind. I was taught that I am blind, i.e., I cannot know what I am doing wrong without someone helping me see.
(3) How can I learn to see? One beautiful spiritual exercise I was taught was this:
when you read the Gospels, you must identify with the “bad” guy NOT the good guy as we (being blind) tend to do. So, in stories involving the Pharisees, I am a Pharisee and Jesus is talking to me. I have to ask: how am I being a Pharisee with others? By judging, by being self-righteous, by following rules and believing that is spirituality. Or, perhaps very pertinent to this discussion: how am I one of the men stoning the woman caught in adultery? How am I stoning others? What is Jesus saying to me? And, of course, you have to be the woman caught in adultery. How have a betrayed my promises? What is Jesus saying to me. Doing that leads to being less blind but, as St. Paul said: We walk through life here as if through a glass darkly.
(4) The last words Jesus said should always be right before us: “Father, forgive them FOR THEY KNOW NOT WHAT THEY DO.” Again, blindess but always, always, always forgiveness.
That’s what I’ve been taught and what I have learned. I want you to know that your post showed what a true Christian you are. You did not judge or lecture threaten your friend, you listened and you shared. You showed compassion not condemnation. Your beautiful post was one of the best here. Thanks for letting God shine through your life.
I find the closed minds of many commenters here to be sickening. I have always asked just one question regarding abortion: Can you tell me without any doubt whatsoever exactly the moment life begins? The answer has to be “no” and no one can honestly say otherwise. As a result, since we cannot know exactly when that is, there is the possibility that abortion would take a life. I never want to harm another human being. Therefore, I could never take a chance of stopping a life through abortion. There is no way you can be sure when life starts, but you can be sure you don’t risk taking that life.
This issue is not about freedom or rights. If it were, we should be talking about the rights and freedoms of all involved. But the unborn child seems to have no rights. Better to err on the side of caution and not take a life than to make the mistake of harming one life. If you people would realize that there are things in life that are bigger than you maybe you’d understand that sometimes sacrifice is better than getting what you want. And besides, if you don’t want to have a baby, then don’t get pregnant. And don’t tell me that some people can’t afford birth control, or birth control doesn’t always work. There is one form of birth control that is 100% effective and that’s abstinence. If you don’t want to take a chance at getting pregnant, then don’t have sex.
My heart pities you people. You are poor excuses for human beings.
To “A Priest”,
Dear Father,
I find your comment “It is still you who miss the point. You recite what you are fed without ever understanding it” to be puzzling. Perhaps you are one of these people who like to “nuance” teachings of the Magisterium when you don’t want to accept them. Certainly there are things which I don’t understand, but accept them because their source is Divine Revelation. Perhaps, since you are in possession of much greater knowledge, you can explain to me the inner workings of the life of the Holy Trinity! What you outline as the way we should live is certainly correct. But, you are ignoring the fact that we are also called to be “in the world and not of it” in a full way. This also involves being involved in politics, especially when the issues involve such intrinsic evils as murder of the innocent. We are called to do what you outline, but we are also called to do what I outline. We are called to do both. Some have their primary calling to be in the civic arena (I think of St. Thomas More). Some find their strongest calling in running the charitable works of the Church (I think of Mother Theresa). The two are not mutually exclusive. We desperately need serious Catholics influencing the political world, as well as serious catholics coming to the aid of the marginalized. This is the gist of my point.
I completely agree with the Cardinal. His insight is very thoughtful and insightful. God bless him for his astuteness and clarity.
Dear Bill Ronner,
Charles’ comments above, which you reference, are so alien from Catholic Orthodoxy that it would take ages to refute each point. I suggest that he get a copy of the Catechism of the Catholic Church, read it, and them come back to the discussion. One point in his monologue I feel a need to comment on. I am an Eastern-Rite Catholic. We have had married priests for centuries. I am a married deacon, and, thus a married clergyman. To mention this in the same breath with “women priests” is to mix apples and oranges. The issue of married clergy is a disciplinary one, while the issue of gender of the clergy is an ontological one. “Progressivists” usually miss the point on that. Perhaps Charles would feel more comfortable in one of those “easy-going” churches (or, rather, “ecclesial communities”). Episcopalians and Main-Line Protestants demand virtually nothing of their members in terms of Faith Content, Morals, and Disciplines.
What is the original meaning of Apocalyptic - It means “removal of the cover”.
The word “Reveal” or Revelation comes from this.
Do you think a Cardinal would know that?
And Peter Wilson should look at the last book in the bible and realize there is no “s” in Revelation.
Dear Charles,
On the point of embryonic stem cell research, you are complicating a moral issue which is really quite simple. It is illicit to engage in embryonic stemm cell research because it involves the direct taking of an innocent human life. This is always intrinsically evil. Using adult stem cells in research is licit, because it does not directly take the life of an innocent human being, nor does it violate any of the Ten Commandments. This is all we need to know.
Dear Charles,
As to a black Pope. Give us Arinze (or virtually any of the African Bishops) ! They, for the most part, are great lions of Catholic Orthodoxy. Sadly for you, I think you would be disappointed that they do not buy into your agenda.
if abortion is evil, what do you think about cancer cell? Isn’t it cancer cell is a living organism? Also where is cancer come from……is it from the environment or medical text books claim misinformation is from genetic factor?
Dear Faithful Follower,
To have the State uphold the values of the Gospels in it’s legislation is not a substitute for direct interaction in relationships. They are both necessary. Many people think that if something is legal, it is OK. This is simply not true. That’s all I am trying to get across.
Dear George Mc Grath,
You (and many others) need to know that it is not Pharasaical to identify certain actions as gravely immoral. We are free to make that judgement. We are not free to judge the culpability of individuals who perform such actions. In order for them to be culpapble, before God, for the commission of grave sin, they must meet the three conditions for a sin to be truly mortal: (1.) Serious matter, (2.) sufficient reflection, and (3.) full consent of the will. We do not know, and are in no position to know, where individuals stand in this regard. This is what Our Lord means when he tells us not to judge. When we condemn Obama’s stance on infanticide, for example, we are not judging his culpability before God. We are judging the intrinsic evil of the act of infanticide.
Out of touch, heads in the sand!: U.S. Catholic bishops - have spent millions on Roe v Wade, clergy sex-abuse suits, and NOTHING on adult education, persuading “hearts and minds” –no guts on WAR (wimps on opposing Bush), sterile eunichs.
Would that Bernadin and Dearden were still alive….
I think before 4 years is up, any of the cardinal’s comments will pale in comparison to what’s happened.
[...] Stafford, a prominent American Catholic close to Pope Benedict XVI, launched into a vicious tirade against the newly elected President of the United States, Barack Obama. He launched a conservative [...]
Many of you are going wide and far afield for your thinly and faulty constructed arguments. 2008 is not 1008 or even 1808.
Let’s deal with the present, we cannot change history, nor view history through the lens of modern thought, belief and societal norms.
The CHURCH, has never changed it’s position, abortion and contraception are related. One prevents human life from the very start, the other destroys human life at it’s most fragile point, it is murder. There are consequences. Mentally, physically and spiritually there are effects upon the expectant mother and on those that endorse and practice abortion.
Human beings are reduced to objects, just “blob” of tissue. WE all are just a blob of organic matter and tissue in the image of our creator.
It has already begun, the desensitization of society to the murder of those that the society views as “unproductive,” whose lives are viewed as “dismal” and “not worth living.”
What criteria? Whose standards? At what point are you or I to be declared “unfit” to live.
Deacon Behrens’ is much more education on the details. We Catholics CONDEMN the sin, and pray for the sinner.
I believe many of you are missing several important points. First, the Cardinal is entitled to his opinion. You may not agree with him, but he has that right. Second, you do your argument no good by attacking the man and the church instead of logically refuting his argument. Third, just because Bush is alleged to have lied, Clinton was ’serviced’ by an intern, Kennedy had affairs in the White House and Nixon lied, perhaps we should condemn this way of government and return to Quenn Elizabeth? (Don’t condemn all of the church because of the rotten apples.) Last, there are those who condemn abortion for what it does. You don’t have to embrace that viewpoint, merely accept the fact that a differing viewpoint exists.
I am both amused and saddened by the viciousness of some of those who disagree with the pro-life position. It has been said that when one side becomes violent ot vicious, they have admitted they have lost the argument and must resort to alternate attacks.
By-the-way, tho I defend the Catholic right to have an opinion and a standard, I am not a member of the Catholic church.
Christianity has a violent history. Catholic wants to rule the world. Believe in no religion. Most people only see the nice and lovely front door, but people don’t see the back door in Vatican. The Vatican concepts tells people you need to confess your sin, then your sin will be forgiving. Oh why not allow people enter Vatican secret history library! I want to see information regarding their deed…..such as Jesus this and Jesus that…….Muslim this and Muslim that……during the Dark Age…..witches hunt…..torture chambers…..religion export, yea other countries will pay taxes to Vatican……If god asks me oh son do you like to go to heaven and sit next to me in the throne? I would say no! Then god says why son? I say you god watch out ! You think you all mighty and powerful in the universe! All people specially men will say why do I have to sit next to boring god (spirit)! On Earth men enjoy sex, lust, religion authority, power, all forms of money, wealth, enslave others, you farm and I be master, …….and etc and etc. Now you tell people and I to sit next to you god and be holly! People will dethrone you god….you can see that is how happen they called the myth of falling angel. People we are even more dangerous than the falling angel. People will dethrone you god and god says that is impossible! Look the spirit can not be destroy and cut in halve. But with wisdom you can twist god’s arm. With wisdom you can cut the spirit in halve. Uh oh god you are the spirit! Well I am going to rest now. You figure out all this pray and religion deception. Why don’t we ask the catholic father and pope, would you be self honest?
To Robert Behrens, a Deacon of Law
You see Robert, you have revealed your true nature. You continue to quote law, words, knowledge that you have been spoon fed and none of it speaks of what you feel called by God (although I am sure we will get some explanation of it now which includes your desire to spread the law) Not one statement of relationship with God. Not one statement of hearing Jesus in your life. You hear orthodoxy (whatever that means - since everyone puts their own spin on it) and nothing else. When you stated in one of your replies as to what kind of pope you would want - your response someone who is orthodox. Not even mention of the fact that we need someone who has developed a close relationship with God. That we need someone with passion for the way of Jesus. That we need someone who will shepherd, not govern. Your answer - orthodoxy - someone who knows the rules and will enforce them. Robert, open your heart to God - you can’t serve God and textbooks - pick one as the most important. You can still have the other but not as the primary influence in your life. Robert, you don’t have to be afraid - God won’t shut you out for the many vices and sins in your life - although GOd just may shut out those who have shut out others. At this stage in your life why do you worry about classifying sins, Robert? Aren’t we classified enough in every other way. Why is it so difficult for you to let go? Look even your imitation of the scribes in asking that I explain the inner workings of the Trinity demonstrates how far you have wondered and how thick the wall has become. Let go Robert, find your real relationship with GOd. Put down the book you recite prayers from once in a while and just open yourself to feeling, and maybe even hearing GOd, it will do you so much good. Prepare yourself Robert because after 2,000 years people are finally ready to hear God even before the Magisterium. And sadly, you do not get it Robert, if you think that equal attention has been given to our responsibility (all the faithful - not just the ones you may think are faithful) to serve as has been given to laws, then you are mistaken. It has not worked - it has failed - now it’s time to try it the way Jesus taught us. Look Robert, even your response to “Faithful Follower” does not allow you to recognize how she touched someone in the same way Jesus did. Do you think if her friend had not spoken to her and not heard about her experience, not heard about her healing - that she would have decided to keep her baby becasue of a law? I think not. You couldn’t even bring yourself to be joyful and lifted up by her experience. She could have touched your heart - if you had allowed her instead of worrying what the civil law is first. Just think if their were a whole army of “Faithful Followers” who were willing to touch one heart at a time. Guess what? It would make little difference if there were a law allowing abortion or not. But alas, so many have put more stock in human laws than God’s way, including so many within the Church who have promised to shepherd. I offer you a challenge Robert, put aside all that you know of human law (civil or church) for a whole month - and pay attention only to the way of Jesus - touch one person at a time - see if after a month you don’t feel like a new person. Oh and you may just find out that more people may want to hear you. Just put aside your fear that causes you to hide from a one on one with God.
Deacon,
Great points! That the issue of women’s ordination and married priests are similar reveals a great misunderstanding of the teachings of Christ and His Church. Also, there are married Roman Catholic priests.
Charles, rolling out Galileo demonstrates a misunderstanding of that issue. He went to the Jesuits to ask for permission to teach his THEORY. They
pproved, as long as he taught it as theory until he could prove it. At that point he couldn’t prove it. Thus, the rebuke. Why did he even go to the Jesuits in the first place? Because they were the “Society of Scientists” They were the geniuses of the time, and most scientist went to them for approval. Incidentally, when you criticize the Catholic Church don’t forget to tell your audience what Capernicus’s calling was! He was a priest. as was the father of Astronomy.
If I should be removed for not performing gay marriages even though I perform no marriages, should medical personnel lose their right to practice for not performing abortions? Shouls catholic hospitals cease to exist for refusing to engage in this intrinsic evil? Should every Town Clerk, Magistrate, Mayor, Town Supervisor etc be removed for refusing to perform same sex marriages.
If you answer in a consistent yes, then it seems the “conscience exemption” should no longer exist. Therefore, anyone refusing to fight in the war should also be penalized.
Deacon, I believe these people are Episcopalians but don’t know it yet. And they probably don’t really know the difference. Charles actually makes this point when he says he doesn’t consider others beliefs to be wrong. How then do we explain the difference between Jews and Christians? Either jesus is God incarnate or he isn’t. No wiggle room. Either the Eucharist is the Body of Christ or it isn’t. Either intentionally taking an innocent human life is wrong, or it isn’t. Either the Trinity is true or it isn’t. And who do we listen to to find the truth? We listen to the successors of the Apostles who are authorized to teach the truth, or we turn to the secular progressives.
This is interesting later Catholic stated in the news that is okay a okay to believe alien in space! What if unusually things happen, will most religions collapse?
It is heartening to read the comments by Cardinal Stafford, particularly considering the weak kneed comments by most of the American bishops, especially that of the disappointingly mellow statement by Cardinal George on behalf of the USCCB. The Catholic Church must speak up for the doctrine and the faith with a united voice and I hope Cardinal Stafford will not back track from his comments. Someone should send a transcript of his talk to the administrator of the South Carolina diocese who upbraided Fr. Newman of St Mary’s Church, Greenville, SC for also having the audacity to speak the truth. However, will Americans listen to the views of the Church in which one day the Pope calls to congratulate Obama on his victory and a few days later one of his most trusted cardinals sharply criticizes the man and the election? I wonder. These are difficult and trying times for American Catholics trying to hold firm to the “faith once for all delivered to the sants” when our own leaders cannot seem to get their act together.
Without the Catholic Church, the flame of Christianity would have been extinguished long ago ……. and none of you would be here.
Charles,
I find it ironic that you would say there are more of “you” than there are of “us.” While that may be true for a time, we find great consolation in knowing that the up and coming generations of Roman Catholics do not agree with you. There has been a remarkable resurgence in the Church of young people who yearn for the Traditions and ideals of the “past.” And if you don’t believe that, just look at colleges and universities like Christendom, Ave Maria, Thomas Aquinas, Dallas, Wyoming Catholic, etc. We are making a comeback! And just one more bit of food for thought, we are NOT contracepting ourselves or having abortions. We are having children, God providing, and raising them as faithful to the teachings of the Church. It doesn’t take a rocket scientist to do the math and realise that my eight or more children outnumber the progressive family of one or two.
~Pax~
To “A Priest”,
I am a Catholic of the Byzantine Rite. Perhaps you’ve never heard this, but the notion of Orthodoxy in the East involves the whole package-the absolute embrace of the person of Jesus Christ. The term, literally translated, means “true praise” or “true glory”. There is an implication of Love of God & neighbor. There is no implication of Pharasaism, as we understand it. We embrace the person of Jesus Christ. We strive to love Him, and our neighbors as ourselves, as He demands. This is the “penultimate law”, the law of Love. We try to live this. We also try to adhere to His every word. We try to live according to His teachings in every facet of life. He told us He would send the Holy Spirit to teach us all things. It is the mind of the Church that Ecumenical Councils reflect the teachings of the Holy Spirit. The first seven Ecumenical Councils are especially important to us. These Councils were especially crucial in resolving many issues as to what Christians are to believe (specially on Christological issues), and what they are to discard. These Councils (as well as later Councils) also laid down many “laws” or legal prescriptions. The Fathers of the Church, both East & West, thought these teachings and prescriptions to be crucial. The early Church of the Apostolic Age had also laid down laws and prescriptions. Try reading the Didache. If the Fathers thought the Didache to be important, who am I (or you) to disregard that? The Church has law, primarily for OUR edification and protection. Holy Orhodoxy involves embracing all that is Jesus Christ, and all that is His will. It involves discarding OUR will, and, in humility, accepting HIS will. This involves acquiring the virtue of humility. To refuse to be “spoon-fed”, as you call it, has a strong suggestion of thinking oneself to be superior to the mind of the Church of Christ. In Western Christianity, it is possible to be a “dissident” and to still be termed a “theologian” (I think of Hans Kung, for example). In Eastern Christianity, it is considered to be impossible for this to occur. One who is a “theologian” lives, to the best of his/her ability, the Law of Love, and accepts the whole package of the Faith, as understood and taught by the Universal Church. Heterodoxy involves picking and choosing what WE want to believe and live, according to OUR desires and wants. This involves the vice of Pride, the opposite of humility. I’ve read many “progressivist” “theologians”. What I see coming out of a lot of them is “my theology”, i.e., pride. It all usually involves rejecting the “hard” teachings of Christ and His Church (in this day and age, especially in the areas of morality-especally sexual morality). While it is possible for a Christian to be pharasaical in erroneously living the Faith legalistically, and not having love in his/her heart, there is no conflict between having a loving relationship with God & neighbor, and carrying out God’s will (i.e. adhering to His Law).
To “A Priest”
P.S. Your comment about hearing God before the Magisterium speaks volumes.
Perhaps you don’t believe, then, that the Magisterium is guided by the Holy Spirit?
For the Deacon Robert Behrens, as a black catholic female please don’t try to speak for the african bishops even I as a black american, born in this country can not speak for them, our experiences are different, age wise, gender wise, race as it pertains to me growing up in America and not in one of the African countries,although we both may know each others history, because for us{black people} in this country, it began with an african, and wouldn’t you know it, God began a new thing he chose a white woman,and look at her history in this country, there was a time when black men were beaten, lynched, jailed and mudered, because white men and women, thought he had looked , raped or disrepected a white woman, and we won’t even talk about interacial marriages or relationships period, or the rapes of and murders of
The Bible Regards Abortion as Murder
http://covenantnews.com/cspa990830.htm
Jesus was Jewish & had full faith in his forefathers beliefs. He chose to rectify his religion as he felt it had gone astray & from that we now have Christianity.
Jewish faith holds that a baby in the womb is not ensouled until quickening (ie - when the mother feels the baby kick or move). That’s what Jesus believed.
So those of you who choose to feel differently, by all means do so, but don’t distort Jesus’ beliefs and replace them with beliefs he did not have.
Abortion within the first trimester, by Jesus’ beliefs, is not murder because the fetus is not yet ensouled as their beliefs state. Those of us who don’t feel abortion is murder have every right to live by our morals and we promise not to make you live by them. If only the Catholic Church could do the same.
Crystal,
I have no argument with you, and I don’t pretend to speak for African Bishops. I only speak for myself. But, I have read about them, and heard about them mostly from African-born friends. These are good men, serious men of God. I can think of a few of them who I think would be well-qualified to take on the cross of the Papacy. It is sad that the Catholic Church in the U.S. has such a relatively low number of African-American members. But, I did my formation for the Diaconate in the city of Philadelphia. There are a lot of Black Catholics there. My impression was that the “Black Catholic Church” there is a very positive scene. My impression of the people was that they love God, and neighbor. I never had the sense that any of those whom I met were trying to water down the Faith to make it fit what THEY wanted. I’ve also had this impression of other African-American Christians. My big problem is with the white “liberal Catholics”. When people become wealthy in material goods, there is the temptation to feel that they do not need God. You will find this attitude amongst a lot of white Catholics (and other Christians) in the U.S., and in Western Europe. Please keep in mind that the KKK also persecuted, tortured, and murdered non-African Catholics and Jews. I am partially of Irish ancestry. When my great grandparents arrived here, they were greeted with signs outside of places of employment stating “Irish need not apply.” They were called “mackerel snatchers” because they fasted from meat on Fridays. They were also referred to as “micks” and “donkeys”. What your people went through was much worse, but we also have had a bit of a taste of persecution (never mind what the Irish endured under British rule).
Kurt,
As understood by the Church, and taught by the Ecumenical Councils, Our Lord Jesus Christ is the Second Person of the Blessed Trinity, the Word (Logos). His Divinity pre-existed His Sacred Humanity from time immemorial. He is a Divine Person who took on human nature. His Divine Knowledge informed His human knowledge. When He walked the earth, he could read souls. The Gospels provide many instances of this. Pope Pius XII taught that even while in the womb, Our Lord Jesus Christ, in His Sacred Humanity, had the Beatific Vision of the Father, and that He could see every human being ever created, and ever to be created, since the beginning of time, and until the end of time. Because of the Hypostatic Union of His Divine Nature and His Human Nature, He was not in error on anything, and I would say, especially the issue as to when human life begins, since He is the creator of human life (Eastern Christian icons depict Our Lord Jesus Christ creating the whole Cosmos). By the way, what is your source for saying that Jesus believed the body was “ensouled” upon quickening? That’s certainly not in the Gospels. That was a belief of many in the Early Church. But, despite that, we find in early Apostolic-age documents, like the Didache, a firm condemnation of the practice of abortion as murder of human life. The issue of ensoulment is irrelevant to that of murder. The victim is still human. Additionaly, the Church has since clarified that the soul is created simultaneously with the body. And, of course, the Church Militant is the Mystical Body of Christ on Earth, taught by the Holy Spirit, who is sent by Christ.
all women in this country,{in this world }period ,not just physically but mentally, since time began, God certainly was not a part of that, but they said they were doing it in the name of God, or defending God’s honor, God does not as far as I’m concern need men to defend his honor, he made you, not the other way around, talk about pro-life or pro-choice there wasn’t any practice of any of it during slavery, or afterward, for years and years,but let me not get off the subject, he chose Stanley Ann Duham, this woman who was so ahead of her times,and Barack Hussain Obama Sr. an African to have this baby,to me that was a pro-life and pro choice moment, and nothing about it was anti, life or anti america or anti christian, God was defintely in the mixx ,what was going through the cardinal’s mind when the republicans chose a man like Bush,{ who chose a man like Cheney }over McCain who had the same record then that he has in 2008,war hero and P.O.W.all that onSuper Tuesday in South Carolina, played the race card on him{OMG, WTH}by giving him a black biological child and playing that way down south in Dixie, on states rights, with that Civil War Stars and Bars flag game that true southerners as they say love to play, {you know my diddy{daddy} fought and died for those states rights}you yankees comin down heah trying to tell us what to do with our n—-s and all,talking about things being aggressive, disruptive and apocalyptic, Charles, I can agree with you on everything except voting for gay marriages, although I know you can’t tell grown people what to do, but that is another issue and that is not the subject here, besides that I’m tired of writing, Also for the priest ,who wrote so elegantly on this subject, keep me in your prayers, and on the altar at all times when you are saying the mass because I am an old foot soldier, child of the sixties and seventies,who, along with her family, has tried to do battle for a very long time against ignorance, cruelty and injustice,I love that slang that the kids say today “Father you are The Truth”, so are you Charles even if we disagree on the gay issue
I agree with this Cardinal, but I know that the die is cast at this point.
I am trying to respect the different opinions on this page, however, the few that seem to bother me are the ones that keep implying that if someone didn’t vote for Barack Obama, then they must be racist. This statement is simply some kind of reversed racism. This idea that the countries skin color is changing and people are afraid is too simplistic, and is made up by people not willing to discuss real politics.
What alot of people aren’t willing to see is that the other half of the country did not vote for Obama because we don’t agree with his beliefs and policies for the most part. If there was any racism in this election it was on the part of african americans who voted almost 100% for Obama and stated on record that it was simply because he was black. Where are the real racists in this country when you look at these statistics.
The only thing that I am afraid of is that this kind of racism will carry into the next four to eight years and that nobody we be able or willing to criticize the future president when he is wrong or when the simply disagree with him ( like in the case of abortion and many other issues).
I just hope that in the future people will be able to learn about the presidential candidates and the issues instead of voting for someone just because of the color of their skin! I hope future presidents are elected because of their skills, qualifications, experience, and morals. After all those things are factored in then it shouldn’t matter if they are black, white, asian, hispanic or anything else.
All that being said, I do wish the future president of our country the best of luck,
but I will also oppose him when I think that he is wrong!
So Kurt, are you saying that Obama supports murder as he believes that abortion should be legal right through the 9th month? You must be horrified that Obama voted against the Born Alive Act which allowed medical personnel to administer care to the child who lived after a botched abortion.
With technology today we can see the child very early in a mother’s womb. The question, therefore, has been answered. But if you voted against Obama because you believe he supports the murder of a child in the second or third trimester, well, good to have you aboard.
By the way, does anyone think the poster “priest” is actually a Catholic priest?
Still on that same ole tired theme are we? Keep the women barefoot and pregnant with full rights to beat their wives…..kiss it all of you. If you won’t fight for rights and support the respect, dignity and honor for and of women, you have lost all credibity in the eyes of the righteous anyway. Ur nothing but a bunch of misoginists.
Well I have a couple comments and then I am done. This is certainly entertaining to read but quite predictably nobody has changed their mind. The world has seen millions fight and die over religious disagreements so I guess it’s not a surprise Internet comment boards aren’t the magic solution. But thanks everyone for participating!!
Deacon, my point was that according to your logic adult stem cells can not be licit, either. That is because most of our knowledge about stem cell therapies, isolation techniques, growth techniques, genetic manipulation, etc etc was originally developed using embryonic cells. There’s no “do-over” in scientific discovery - discoveries can only happen once (kind of like losing your virginity). So if you use adult stem cells you’re still benefiting from all the previous embryonic research. Also scientists using adult stem cells still continue to share and exchange research with scientists using the embryonic ones.
Bill, my only point with Copernicus was that it’s one of the classic examples of the church persecuting a scientist later proven right. The pope threw him in jail.
Caitlin, it’s not “ironic” to claim there are more modern Catholics like me than there are orthodox Catholics like you. It is fact, “rocket science” aside. Look at demographics and voting patterns. Look at research. Beyond just the majority of Catholics who voted for Obama, consider the solid majorities of Catholics who disagree with the official teachings on a whole range of matters. Birth control is one strong example. Do you honestly believe that the majority of Catholics in the US don’t use birth control? That’s just naive and easily proven wrong with studies that are easy to find online. More importantly, attitudes on things like women priests and gay marriage vary dramatically across age groups. Giant majorities of young Catholic voters favor those things.
Even on the most contentious issue, abortion (which I am personally against), one post-election study conducted in cooperation with Catholics in Alliance found that a plurality of Catholics (49%) believe abortion should remain legal whereas only 45% believe it should be illegal under most circumstances. Here is the link: http://www.faithinpubliclife.org/content/post-electionpoll/.
The annual study conducted at Georgetown University by the highly respected, number one Catholic social sciences center in the country, the Center for Applied Research in the Apostolate (CARA) at Georgetown University found 58% of Catholics favor keeping Roe v. Wade. http://cara.georgetown.edu/CCP.html
Bill, I don’t believe in the “conscience exemption” because civil rights and civil equality matter more to me than arbitrary discrimination against gays. Regarding the military, I am against the draft in any form. I do believe volunteer soldiers sign contracts, however, so those contracts need to be upheld if we go to war.
Finally, why can’t we have a debate on these issues without arguing over who is a Catholic and who is not. How ridiculous. For people to judge me and say I’m not actually a Catholic, I must be Episcopalian, etc. would be incredibly hurtful and insulting if my faith is not as strong as it is. But I would never accuse one of you of “not being Catholic” simply because we disagree. The “you must not be a Catholic” argument does nothing except convince me that I’m arguing with people who don’t understand what Jesus taught.
I’m a pretty young guy. I don’t hold extreme views. I hold the views of the majority, certainly the views of the majority within my age group. I am the future of the church whether you all like it or not.
Sounds more like a ‘political’ agenda than anything Jesus ever said! Wonder how much the Republicans pay him? Especially adding in all the mexicon drug money the church launders for them and the kick-backs from the drug-cartels for supporting their illegal businesses. He must be getting rich off the backs of poor women since they won’t help them.
Hi everyone, I have a couple comments and then I am done. This is certainly entertaining to read but quite predictably nobody has changed their mind. The world has seen millions fight and die over religious disagreements so I guess it’s not a surprise Internet comment boards aren’t the magic solution. But thanks everyone for participating!!
Deacon, my point was that according to your logic adult stem cells can not be licit, either. That is because most of our knowledge about stem cell therapies, isolation techniques, growth techniques, genetic manipulation, etc etc was originally developed using embryonic cells. There’s no “do-over” in scientific discovery - discoveries can only happen once (kind of like losing your virginity). So if you use adult stem cells you’re still benefiting from all the previous embryonic research. Also scientists using adult stem cells still continue to share and exchange research with scientists using the embryonic ones.
Bill, my only point with Copernicus was that it’s one of the classic examples of the church persecuting a scientist later proven right. The pope threw him in jail.
Caitlin, it’s not “ironic” to claim there are more modern Catholics like me than there are orthodox Catholics like you. It is fact, “rocket science” aside. Look at demographics and voting patterns. Look at research. Beyond just the majority of Catholics who voted for Obama, consider the solid majorities of Catholics who disagree with the official teachings on a whole range of matters. Birth control is one strong example. Do you honestly believe that the majority of Catholics in the US don’t use birth control? That’s just naive and easily proven wrong with studies that are easy to find online. More importantly, attitudes on things like women priests and gay marriage vary dramatically across age groups. Giant majorities of young Catholic voters favor those things.
Even on the most contentious issue, abortion (which I am personally against), one post-election study conducted in cooperation with Catholics in Alliance found that a plurality of Catholics (49%) believe abortion should remain legal whereas only 45% believe it should be illegal under most circumstances. Here is the link: http://www.faithinpubliclife.org/content/post-electionpoll/.
The annual study conducted at Georgetown University by the highly respected, number one Catholic social sciences center in the country, the Center for Applied Research in the Apostolate (CARA) at Georgetown University found 58% of Catholics favor keeping Roe v. Wade. http://cara.georgetown.edu/CCP.html
Bill, I don’t believe in the “conscience exemption” because civil rights and civil equality matter more to me than arbitrary discrimination against gays. Regarding the military, I am against the draft in any form. I do believe volunteer soldiers sign contracts, however, so those contracts need to be upheld if we go to war.
Finally, why can’t we have a debate on these issues without arguing over who is a Catholic and who is not. How ridiculous. For people to judge me and say I’m not actually a Catholic, I must be Episcopalian, etc. would be incredibly hurtful and insulting if my faith is not as strong as it is. But I would never accuse one of you of “not being Catholic” simply because we disagree. The “you must not be a Catholic” argument does nothing except convince me that I’m arguing with people who don’t understand what Jesus taught.
I’m a pretty young guy. I don’t hold extreme views. I hold the views of the majority, certainly the views of the majority within my age group. I am the future of the church whether you all like it or not.
I have a couple comments and then I am done. This is certainly entertaining to read but quite predictably nobody has changed their mind. The world has seen millions fight and die over religious disagreements so I guess it’s not a surprise Internet comment boards aren’t the magic solution. But thanks everyone for participating!!
Deacon, my point was that according to your logic adult stem cells can not be licit, either. That is because most of our knowledge about stem cell therapies, isolation techniques, growth techniques, genetic manipulation, etc etc was originally developed using embryonic cells. There’s no “do-over” in scientific discovery - discoveries can only happen once (kind of like losing your virginity). So if you use adult stem cells you’re still benefiting from all the previous embryonic research. Also scientists using adult stem cells still continue to share and exchange research with scientists using the embryonic ones.
Bill, my only point with Copernicus was that it’s one of the classic examples of the church persecuting a scientist later proven right. The pope threw him in jail.
Caitlin, it’s not “ironic” to claim there are more modern Catholics like me than there are orthodox Catholics like you. It is fact, “rocket science” aside. Look at demographics and voting patterns. Look at research. Beyond just the majority of Catholics who voted for Obama, consider the solid majorities of Catholics who disagree with the official teachings on a whole range of matters. Birth control is one strong example. Do you honestly believe that the majority of Catholics in the US don’t use birth control? That’s just naive and easily proven wrong with studies that are easy to find online. More importantly, attitudes on things like women priests and gay marriage vary dramatically across age groups. Giant majorities of young Catholic voters favor those things.
Even on the most contentious issue, abortion (which I am personally against), one post-election study conducted in cooperation with Catholics in Alliance found that a plurality of Catholics (49%) believe abortion should remain legal whereas only 45% believe it should be illegal under most circumstances. Here is the link: http://www.faithinpubliclife.org/content/post-electionpoll/.
The annual study conducted at Georgetown University by the highly respected, number one Catholic social sciences center in the country, the Center for Applied Research in the Apostolate (CARA) at Georgetown University found 58% of Catholics favor keeping Roe v. Wade. http://cara.georgetown.edu/CCP.html
Bill, I don’t believe in the “conscience exemption” because civil rights and civil equality matter more to me than arbitrary discrimination against gays. Regarding the military, I am against the draft in any form. I do believe volunteer soldiers sign contracts, however, so those contracts need to be upheld if we go to war.
Finally, why can’t we have a debate on these issues without arguing over who is a Catholic and who is not. How ridiculous. For people to judge me and say I’m not actually a Catholic, I must be Episcopalian, etc. would be incredibly hurtful and insulting if my faith is not as strong as it is. But I would never accuse one of you of “not being Catholic” simply because we disagree. The “you must not be a Catholic” argument does nothing except convince me that I’m arguing with people who don’t understand what Jesus taught.
I’m a pretty young guy. I don’t hold extreme views. I hold the views of the majority, certainly the views of the majority within my age group. I am the future of the church whether you all like it or not.
Although I don’t often agree with roman catholics, I do agree with the Cardinal’s assessment of the president-elect. He is a puppet of the forces of evil desiring to destroy this nation. If he is not the antichrist described in the Book of Revelation, he is certainly a chip off the old block. Millions of Americans have been fooled by Obama’s utopian promises, because they are morally blind and spiritually dead. Unfortunately, the Catholic church has been a co-conspirator in this tragic development. They have designed a religion that is a gross perversion of the true church created by the Lord Jesus Christ. They have failed to lead their members into true born-again faith in Jesus Christ, but instead have promoted a counterfeit faith- obedience to the teachings of the church rather than a true personal faith in Christ. This has left most Catholics as church members, rule followers (or not) but not truly born-again Christ followers indwelt by the Holy Spirit. Without the presence of the Holy Spirit, a person is completely vulnerable to “having their ears tickled” as described in Scripture, believing liars like Obama, and putting their faith in morally bankrupt philosophies such as Marxism, which is obviously Obama’s agenda for America. Read the Bible, people. It talks about the likes of Obama (false messiahs) and the likes of the pope (false prophets). Jesus is the only true Messiah, the only Savior, “the One” sent by God the Father to enable all of us to have a personal relationship with our Creator.
There seems to be some confusion as to what I meant in my above post. I thought it was very clear.
You and YOUR church may believe what ever you like. That doesn’t mean that Jesus believed what you believe. I in no way want to stand in the way of your beliefs, but you have no problem standing in the way of mine. Additionally, you keep acting like the issue of abortion was decided by Jesus. Jesus was a firm believer in what transpired as articles of his faith during his time. That being said, don’t make the claim that Jesus would call an abortion of an early term fetus murder as obviously he would not have.
I can understand that you might not agree with me. I don’t ask you to. I only ask that you don’t lie about what Jesus’ beliefs were. Maligning the beliefs of Jesus to make political points demeans Jesus.
WWJD? I’ve stated what and why I believe what I believe.
Oh, sorry. My source of quickening being the moment of ensoulment. Ask a Rabbi.
BTW - Jesus was a Rabbi. Some folks seem to forget that.
Kurt,
We Catholics believe that Jesus is both God and Man. Therefore, it would be impossible for Him to “get it wrong” as to when life begins.
Hello everybody, I have a couple comments and then I am done. This is certainly entertaining to read but quite predictably nobody has changed their mind. The world has seen millions fight and die over religious disagreements so I guess it’s not a surprise Internet comment boards aren’t the magic solution. But thanks everyone for participating!!
Deacon, my point was that according to your logic adult stem cells can not be licit, either. That is because most of our knowledge about stem cell therapies, isolation techniques, growth techniques, genetic manipulation, etc etc was originally developed using embryonic cells. There’s no “do-over” in scientific discovery - discoveries can only happen once (kind of like losing your virginity). So if you use adult stem cells you’re still benefiting from all the previous embryonic research. Also scientists using adult stem cells still continue to share and exchange research with scientists using the embryonic ones.
Bill, my only point with Copernicus was that it’s one of the classic examples of the church persecuting a scientist later proven right. The pope threw him in jail.
Caitlin, it’s not “ironic” to claim there are more modern Catholics like me than there are orthodox Catholics like you. It is fact, “rocket science” aside. Look at demographics and voting patterns. Look at research. Beyond just the majority of Catholics who voted for Obama, consider the solid majorities of Catholics who disagree with the official teachings on a whole range of matters. Birth control is one strong example. Do you honestly believe that the majority of Catholics in the US don’t use birth control? That’s just naive and easily proven wrong with studies that are easy to find online. More importantly, attitudes on things like women priests and gay marriage vary dramatically across age groups. Giant majorities of young Catholic voters favor those things.
Even on the most contentious issue, abortion (which I am personally against), one post-election study conducted in cooperation with Catholics in Alliance found that a plurality of Catholics (49%) believe abortion should remain legal whereas only 45% believe it should be illegal under most circumstances. Here is the link: http://www.faithinpubliclife.org/content/post-electionpoll/.
The annual study conducted at Georgetown University by the highly respected, number one Catholic social sciences center in the country, the Center for Applied Research in the Apostolate (CARA) at Georgetown University found 58% of Catholics favor keeping Roe v. Wade. http://cara.georgetown.edu/CCP.html
Bill, I don’t believe in the “conscience exemption” because civil rights and civil equality matter more to me than arbitrary discrimination against gays. Regarding the military, I am against the draft in any form. I do believe volunteer soldiers sign contracts, however, so those contracts need to be upheld if we go to war.
Finally, why can’t we have a debate on these issues without arguing over who is a Catholic and who is not. How ridiculous. For people to judge me and say I’m not actually a Catholic, I must be Episcopalian, etc. would be incredibly hurtful and insulting if my faith is not as strong as it is. But I would never accuse one of you of “not being Catholic” simply because we disagree. The “you must not be a Catholic” argument does nothing except convince me that I’m arguing with people who don’t understand what Jesus taught.
I’m a pretty young guy. I don’t hold extreme views. I hold the views of the majority, certainly the views of the majority within my age group. I am the future of the church whether you all like it or not.
Kurt, you are wrong. Since you want to cite Jesus’s beliefs, here we go. According to the Bible, Jesus is the second part of the trinity of God. Jesus is God. In the book of Isaiah, God said to the prophet, “before you were formed in your mother’s womb, I knew you” So, are you saying God is perfectly fine with killing his children, that according to His own words, He knows? In Proverbs 6, the bible states there are 7 things God hates, the 3rd is the spilling of innocent blood. Who can be any more innocent that a human being formed in their mother’s womb? So give these scriptures, you somehow conjure up that Jesus is pro-abortion? That stretches credulity!
This is certainly entertaining to read but quite predictably nobody has changed their mind. The world has seen millions fight and die over religious disagreements so I guess it’s not a surprise Internet comment boards aren’t the magic solution. But thanks everyone for participating!!
Deacon, my point was that according to your logic adult stem cells can not be licit, either. That is because most of our knowledge about stem cell therapies, isolation techniques, growth techniques, genetic manipulation, etc etc was originally developed using embryonic cells. There’s no “do-over” in scientific discovery - discoveries can only happen once (kind of like losing your virginity). So if you use adult stem cells you’re still benefiting from all the previous embryonic research. Also scientists using adult stem cells still continue to share and exchange research with scientists using the embryonic ones.
Bill, my only point with Copernicus was that it’s one of the classic examples of the church persecuting a scientist later proven right. The pope threw him in jail.
Caitlin, it’s not “ironic” to claim there are more modern Catholics like me than there are orthodox Catholics like you. It is fact, “rocket science” aside. Look at demographics and voting patterns. Look at research. Beyond just the majority of Catholics who voted for Obama, consider the solid majorities of Catholics who disagree with the official teachings on a whole range of matters. Birth control is one strong example. Do you honestly believe that the majority of Catholics in the US don’t use birth control? That’s just naive and easily proven wrong with studies that are easy to find online. More importantly, attitudes on things like women priests and gay marriage vary dramatically across age groups. Giant majorities of young Catholic voters favor those things.
Even on the most contentious issue, abortion (which I am personally against), one post-election study conducted in cooperation with Catholics in Alliance found that a plurality of Catholics (49%) believe abortion should remain legal whereas only 45% believe it should be illegal under most circumstances. Here is the link: http://www.faithinpubliclife.org/content/post-electionpoll/.
The annual study conducted at Georgetown University by the highly respected, number one Catholic social sciences center in the country, the Center for Applied Research in the Apostolate (CARA) at Georgetown University found 58% of Catholics favor keeping Roe v. Wade. http://cara.georgetown.edu/CCP.html
Bill, I don’t believe in the “conscience exemption” because civil rights and civil equality matter more to me than arbitrary discrimination against gays. Regarding the military, I am against the draft in any form. I do believe volunteer soldiers sign contracts, however, so those contracts need to be upheld if we go to war.
Finally, why can’t we have a debate on these issues without arguing over who is a Catholic and who is not. How ridiculous. For people to judge me and say I’m not actually a Catholic, I must be Episcopalian, etc. would be incredibly hurtful and insulting if my faith is not as strong as it is. But I would never accuse one of you of “not being Catholic” simply because we disagree. The “you must not be a Catholic” argument does nothing except convince me that I’m arguing with people who don’t understand what Jesus taught.
I’m a pretty young guy. I don’t hold extreme views. I hold the views of the majority, certainly the views of the majority within my age group. I am the future of the church whether you all like it or not.
Deacon, my point was that according to your logic adult stem cells can not be licit, either. That is because most of our knowledge about stem cell therapies, isolation techniques, growth techniques, genetic manipulation, etc etc was originally developed using embryonic cells. There’s no “do-over” in scientific discovery - discoveries can only happen once (kind of like losing your virginity). So if you use adult stem cells you’re still benefiting from all the previous embryonic research. Also scientists using adult stem cells still continue to share and exchange research with scientists using the embryonic ones.
Bill, my only point with Copernicus was that it’s one of the classic examples of the church persecuting a scientist later proven right. The pope threw him in jail.
Caitlin, it’s not “ironic” to claim there are more modern Catholics like me than there are orthodox Catholics like you. It is fact, “rocket science” aside. Look at demographics and voting patterns. Look at research. Beyond just the majority of Catholics who voted for Obama, consider the solid majorities of Catholics who disagree with the official teachings on a whole range of matters. Birth control is one strong example. Do you honestly believe that the majority of Catholics in the US don’t use birth control? That’s just naive and easily proven wrong with studies that are easy to find online. More importantly, attitudes on things like women priests and gay marriage vary dramatically across age groups. Giant majorities of young Catholic voters favor those things.
Even on the most contentious issue, abortion (which I am personally against), one post-election study conducted in cooperation with Catholics in Alliance found that a plurality of Catholics (49%) believe abortion should remain legal whereas only 45% believe it should be illegal under most circumstances. Here is the link: http://www.faithinpubliclife.org/content/post-electionpoll/.
The annual study conducted at Georgetown University by the highly respected, number one Catholic social sciences center in the country, the Center for Applied Research in the Apostolate (CARA) at Georgetown University found 58% of Catholics favor keeping Roe v. Wade. http://cara.georgetown.edu/CCP.html
Bill, I don’t believe in the “conscience exemption” because civil rights and civil equality matter more to me than arbitrary discrimination against gays. Regarding the military, I am against the draft in any form. I do believe volunteer soldiers sign contracts, however, so those contracts need to be upheld if we go to war.
Finally, why can’t we have a debate on these issues without arguing over who is a Catholic and who is not. How ridiculous. For people to judge me and say I’m not actually a Catholic, I must be Episcopalian, etc. would be incredibly hurtful and insulting if my faith is not as strong as it is. But I would never accuse one of you of “not being Catholic” simply because we disagree. The “you must not be a Catholic” argument does nothing except convince me that I’m arguing with people who don’t understand what Jesus taught.
I’m a pretty young guy. I don’t hold extreme views. I hold the views of the majority, certainly the views of the majority within my age group. I am the future of the church whether you all like it or not.
Robert , I added on to what I was trying to say when my neice hit the enter button by accident, just saw now what you wrote, now as far as the Irish I know, their history too, being Chicago born and all, knew of an Irish Catholic who was told one time ,I won’t say which state this was in, that the Irish Catholics were joining the country club with their large families and the club was going downhill, the dumba– didn’t know the person he was talking to was Irish,but the Irish themselves were also slave owners, which is why so many blacks can claim Irish ancestry, my great-great grandmother, a product of an cherokee indian and an african/irish slave, married a man who was a product of an african/irish, and you know what is funny we have his picture and not hers and he looks just like a white man, they had two daughters, one son, one of the daughters my great grandmother married a man, who was black and mexican who produced my grandmother, who married a man,who’s mother’s family left Houston Texas on freedom day for slaves, in fact she{his mother }was born on that day for Kansas, he had everything in him ,but what holds us and what sustains us and what we are and know we are, are African- Americans,and that we all are people of God its funny when on the census I see the word mulatto for some on my relatives, when they were being counted at least as people somewhat I think, because we had nothing to do with the rest of it , all the other blood that flows through our viens, you see my thing is I truly believe that alot of white people believe that the white house is in a sense for white people, I mean they really take that to heart, now they want to call it the black house, and all that bulls—, well maybe we do too when we are joking, but they take it to heart and want to know why we can’t wait, when we’ve been waiting since the 1600’s for America to live up to it’s promise, that we do indeed hold these truths to be self evident, that all men not just some are truly created equal, and that when we sing or say God bless America, which I have a big problem with,beause for a large majority of America it is God bless America and nobody else, when we should be singing My eyes have seen the glory of the coming of the Lord, and especially that part that says as he died to make men holy, let us die to make men free, the Battle Hymn of the Republic, Julia Ward Howe, can you believe a song written of all times during the Civil War, when it was really needed
To me, the debate on embryonic stem cells falls strictly on the same sides of the abortion debate. So I’m of the opinion that this is merely a proxy for the root debate, abortion.
Hi everyone sorry for the multiple posts. The site wasn’t posting my comments and then it was telling me I had already posted the same comment, so I kept rewriting the intro to slip past the filter.
Again, sorry, I am trying to keep the discussion constructive despite all the insults thrown at me, including assaults on whether my Catholicism is real.
-Charles
And another point. As a Christian, citing poll results are meaningless regarding matters of Christianity. God’s word is what matters.
Robert Behrens, Deacon -
Yes my comment speaks volumes - about trust in God over human nature. Even those guided by the Holy Spirit - oh, which I thought all of us are - are subject to experience, prejudices, weaknesses, etc, etc. Look a little closer at your statements and you will see that you have made Councils, documents, and the rest equal to God. Very interesting, but sad. If I understand your definition of a theologian - it is only someone you agree with. Again, very interesting, but sad. I thought the selection of a Pope was guided by the Spirit, but you say you know who would be a good Pope and who would not. (your response to Crystal) Perhaps it is you who can clearly articulate the inner workings of the Trinity since you have so much knowledge. Is an “implication” of love of God and neighbor the same as loving God and neighbor? You should definitely meditate on Matthew 25:31-46. I don’t seem to be able to find anything implied. It seems pretty direct, concise and to the point. Now I have double checked but my version still does not say anything about when there was a bad law you repealed it. When there was no law, you made one. When someone sinned, you condemned them. When there was need, you consulted an Ecumenical Council. When action was needed, you went to the library. When someone needed a hand, you quoted a Father of the Church. Remember it is becasue of trust in something more than God that we had great schisms. It is trust in other than God that brought about the Reformation. It is because of trust in other than the message of the Gospel that allowed 2 groups of Eastern monks to get into a fist fight in the Church of the Holy Sepulcher very recently. It is bcause of trust in other than God that the Church has made many mistakes - with finances, with living styles, with dealings with those who put others in danger, with many other things. It is becasue of trust in something more than God that Christians owned slaves, persecuted people from countries they considered inferior, went on witchhunts to rid themselves of those considered unholy, and so on and so on. These are by some Church Leaders who ar called to be open to the promptings of the Holy SPirit, but as human beings are not always convinced that, in some things, their way is not as good as God’s way. If those who were followers cared more about God’s way than in what the law said, these evils would have been eliminated long before any law was passed. The bottom line is that in your book there is no hope unless there is law. In my book there is no hope in law when it usurps the mandate and example given to us by Jesus - they are not equal. Keep going after laws, keep supporting the wastefulness of time, talent and treasure, keep believing that you have no agenda, keep putting your faith more in Church documents than in the Word of God, keep the status quo with the Church and see the results. As for me and my house, we will serve the Lord. But you should try it the other way for a while, it will relieve your angst, and oh yeah - it may even bring you into a closer relationship with God.
Darryl I don’t suggest polls should determine the doctrine. But to a certain extent a religion is defined by those who practice it. And over time, the two converge. The policy on interracial marriage is a great example of this. It used to be against the church’s teaching, then there was a civil rights movement, and then was enormous pressure on the Vatican to rewrite the doctrine, and then they did.
It always takes forever, but changes in doctrine inspired by the popular will have happened before and they will happen again. My money is on married priests as the next change… especially in the US there just aren’t enough priests in the pipeline to keep up with demand. You’ll see…
Charles,
You show your age, my friend. If you would like to address my points, then do so. I simply stated that one day, you will be out-numbered by us. You who continue to contracept yourselves and refuse to accept the responsibilities that God bestows upon us, you are doing a disservice to your own kind. I do not argue that most “Catholics” today accept contraception. I do, however, take issue with these people. Why belong to a religion that you don’t believe in? What exactly keeps you coming back to the Church if you blatantly disregard its teachings and tenets? Why not start your own version of Catholicism if you disagree with so much? At least Henry VIII had the decency to part ways with Rome when he took a contrary theological path. There is no room for this kind of division in the Church. Take your “beliefs” elsewhere and stop bothering the Church with your selfish wants and needs. Afterall, that is what this is about. Christ said to St. Therese, you must die to yourself. If we, as Catholics, continue to act selfishly instead of selflessly, we have lost it all. And since when is the majority right? Christ was not part of any majority. And in the words of Chesterton, dead fish float down stream while the live ones swim against the current. Let’s all swim against what we know to be wrong.
~Pax~
As Christians, what matters is God’s Word. Young Catholics can have whatever opinion on abortion, gay rights, etc all they want. But in the final analysis, if they TRULY believe in God and Jesus is His son, none of these opinions matter nothing. Only God’s Word matters. Either we choose to align ourselves with His Word, or we choose to ignore His Word. His Word is clear about abortion and gay rights.
Crystal
I too am an old foot soldier trying to do whatever I can. I certainly would be honored to remember you at Mass and keep you in my prayers. I certainly can always use a prayer or so myslef - so if you get time, say one for me.
Peace and prayers to you.
Charles,
Christianity is defined by God’s Word. Policies on interracial marriage was a construct of man, not of God. In fact, if you study deeply, Moses’ wife was a black woman. Racial segragarion was also a construct of man, not supported by God’s Word. In fact, the New Testament was clear about gentiles being grafted in to the vine meant for Jews.
Regarding Catholic church doctrine, I don’t care what is decided upon. What actually matters is if the doctrine is supported by the Bible. But matters such as abortion and gay rights, the Bible is clear.
Bill Ronner
I can’t see why it matters, but yes I am a Roman Catholic Priest - a pastor who serves a large, young, vibrant community of faith who are hungry to find the way that will bring peace to their lives. But that title or any other title is subserviant to the fact that I am a believer in God’s ways, I happen to also believe in the message and example of Jesus as the way I should follow. God is first - everything comes after that.
Caitlin, you had originally claimed:
“the up and coming generations of Roman Catholics do not agree with you. There has been a remarkable resurgence in the Church of young people who yearn for the Traditions and ideals of the “past.”
And I gave you research done by the leading Catholic research center at the nation’s most prestigious Catholic university, Georgetown, that demonstrates the opposite.
You claimed it didn’t take a “rocket scientist to do the math” No, it doesn’t. The polls are very clear - 3rd grade math at best.
You might be proven right eventually, I don’t know for sure. But the “rocket science” today supports my hypothesis not yours.
To A Priest, you see, if you disagree with Bill Ronner he automatically thinks you’re not Catholic (me), or not a priest (you).
I don’t agree with all your comments either, but I love your message and it’s been really fun reading through the comments here. Thank you!!
FINALLY, now they have to strip Fr Pfleager of his parish (send him to nigeria??) and put a REAL priest in his place.
God Bless His Eminence James Francis Cardinal Stafford for speaking the truth.
Catholics that voted for obambi have committed a SIN and should confess that sin, never to sin like that again. The democrat party is the party of death, NO Catholic should call themself a democrat. The Catholic Church has ALWAYS been pro-life.
To “A Priest”:
You commented: ” Robert Behrens, Deacon -
Yes my comment speaks volumes - about trust in God over human nature”.
In the Catholic Church, an exercise of the Extraordinary Magisterium (De Fide teachings of Councils, Ex Cathedra teachings of Popes) is part of Holy Tradition, and thus, on the level of Holy Scripture, and has God the Holy Spirit as it’s author. We are not talking here about mere human nature. Hopefully, they taught this in your seminary. However, given the squalid state of the “American Church”, one cannot take this for granted. Peace. I’ll pray for your conversion. Gotta go. I have a family to take care of.
Dn. Robert
you know Charles, alot people want to paint CHRIST AS JUST BEING MEEK AND MILD, BUT HE WAS A RADICAL AND VERY REVELOUTIONARY FOR HIS DAY, NOW DO I BELIEVE GOD IS FOR ABORTION, NO BUT DO I BELIEVE THAT WOMEN THEMSELVES {GROWN ADULTS}MUST MAKE UP THEIR OWN MINDS AS TO WHAT THEY CONSIDER IS BEST FOR THEM AND THEIR OWN PEACE OF MIND? YES, BECAUSE ONE OF THE MANY GIFTS HE GAVE US AS HUMAN BEINGS IS FREE WILL, I AM ALL FOR MEN AND WOMEN AND THE SCANCTITY OF MARRIAGE BUT I KNOW THAT FOR SOME OF US, THAT MEN,CERTAINLY NOT ALL , WANT TO DOMINATE EVERY ASPECT OF OUR LIVES, THANK GOD THE MAN THAT IS IN MY LIFE FOR THE LAST TWENTY-THREE YEARS KNOWS WHOS AND WHOSE HE IS AND WHAT HE IS ALL ABOUT ,AND I’M NOT TALKING ABOUT IN REALATION TO ME ONLY, BUT AS A MAN WHO TRUSTS GOD AND KNOWS THAT WE ARE ALL TRULY EQUAL AND THE ONLY DIFFERENCE IN WOMEN AND MEN IS OUR PLUMBING,WELL HE WILL SAY SOMETHING CRAZY SOMETIME ABOUT FEMALE DRIVERS, AND I LOVE IT WHEN I PUT HIM IN HIS PLACE ON THAT AND IT TURNS OUT TO BE A MALE DRIVER,BUT THAT IS A ANOTHER WHOLE SUBJECT,BUT FOR US AS WOMEN ALOT OF THIS GOES BACK AS FAR AS ADAM AND EVE,THE RIB WAS TAKEN FROM THE SIDE,NOT THE TOP FOR YOU TO RULE OVER US,NOT FROM THE BOTTOM FOR YOU TO WALK ALL OVER US, BUT AS I SAID FROM THE SIDE AS YOUR EQUAL , AND THERE ARE SO MANY WOMEN WHO ARE MISSING THIS,IN THEIR LIVES,THEIR LIVES ARE SO FULL OF CONTRADICTION,AND THE PAIN IS SO REAL,MY SISTERS{ALL WOMEN} ARE CRYING OUT AND NO ONE IS HEARING THEM OR FEELING THEIR PAIN,EXCEPT GOD, THEY JUST DON’T WAKE UP AND DECIDE THAT THEY ARE GOING TO HAVE AN ABORTION UPON CONFIRMATION OF A PREGNANCY,PRO-LIFE OR PRO-CHOICE ,WE ARE ALL CHILDREN OR GOD AND WITH JESUS AS OUR BROTHER,WE SHOULD DO WHAT IS HUMANLY POSSIBLE FOR THESE WOMEN AND DO NOT JUDGE,BECAUSE AS WOMEN,WE CAN TRULY SAY THERE BUT FOR THE GRACE OF GOD GOES I, I’M OUT FOR GOOD THIS TIME,BUT YES CHARLES YOU ARE THE FUTUREOF THE CHURCH AND SO ARE THOSE WHO DISAGREE WITH US,
Adults on death row deserve to have their life taken from them, unborn children do not (any child, for that matter). PRIORITIES, PRIORITIES, PRIORITIES!!!
It is weird because all the critics kept on about Barry Soetoro, now known as Barack Hussein Obama Jr, was a Muslim. However, Muslims are also against abortion and yet Soetoro, aka Obama, seems to love abortions (at least according to his voting record, his supporters, and the groups that raised funds for him.) It is apparently that BHO Jr, to use the parlance of the intelligence agencies, is not a Muslim, and is likely not a Christian (although he claims allegience to the radical black liberation racist quasi-Christian theocracy) but the normal, standard socialist with some cult-of-personality and hardcore Marxist-Leninism, thrown in. Socialists, and communists, never had respect for life. They loved abortion (often forced abortion), death penalty, suicide, etc. Remember in order to create the perfect, classless society you’ll need to crack a few eggs and it is all for “the greater good”.
You people that keep crying racism are the true racists. You are wolves hiding in sheeps clothing. No matter how much you baaaaaa you are the hypocrits. No good fruit can come from an evil tree and you are the evil tree. God shall not hold back his temper much longer, even at the prayers of his loved ones. You hypocrits cry out over racism of an evil black man who is selfish and only seeks power. You are like the crowd that cried out to free the murder Barabis. You are hypocrits, you cry out over nonexist injustise of an unjust man but you maintain your silence over the injustice done to the American Indian, the injustice done to the Japanese, the injustice of the Murder of innocent unborn children. Your reward shall be Hell. Satan himself will come for all of you when you least expect it.
Oh Robert I just have to comment again, exactly how many ex cathedra teachings are there? Did your training lead you to believe that every statement is a dogmatic teaching and on the level of Scripture? Or, have you decided which ones are and which ones are not? If someone you have not endorsed (from one of your earlier statements) is elected Pope won’t you consider any teachings to be invalid? Oh maybe you will be the next pope. Exactly which ex cathedra pronouncements says that if someone doesn’t work to change laws they are not a good memeber of the Church? Alas, your arguements begin to have as much power and effect as the human laws you claim will set the people of God on the right course.
Oh by the way Robert by putting down the American CHurch are you not afraid that you are violating canon law? After all you could easily be accused of creating scandal as a member of the clergy. Don’t want to ruin your chance at the papacy now, do you?
John McCain opposes real reform of a health-care system that puts profit above saving lives, resulting in many needless deaths each year.
He is called pro-life.
John McCain supports a broken death penalty system that executes innocent people every year.
He is called pro-life.
John McCain continues to support an immoral, un-just, and illegal war that has killed thousands and thousands of innocent men, women, and children.
He is called pro-life.
President-elect Obama, un the other hand, does not believe that the government should come between a woman and her Doctor, so he is ” ‘aggressive, disruptive and apocalyptic,’ and said he campaigned on an ‘extremist anti-life platform,’. ”
Frankly, I find it much more sane and rational to look to President-elect Obama for moral guidance than a man who once willingly wore a Nazi uniform.
I walked away from a 6 figure job because the French company did not meet my moral standards. I am continually surprised how many people claim to love Christ but don’t have enough faith or courage to stand up for him and his people. God Bless father Stafford!! You are a pillar of LOVE. Now you are a target of the weak spirited.
God Bless,
Rob
It’s about time a Cardial had the guts to oppose Obama.
Obama doesn’t respect life at all so how is it possible for him to keep his oath. SInce he is a supporter of pro-abortion actions then how will he ever respect the life of men or women in service if called to war?
I didn’t vote of Obama and neither did I vote for McCain instead I voted 3-rd party this year for Chuck Baldwin who had the strongest pro-life record and supported bring our troops home and sound money.
The right lost my respect becuase they didn’t end Roe vs. Wade.
17But you must remember, beloved, the predictions of the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ. 18They[f] said to you,(AU) “In the last time there will be scoffers, following their own ungodly passions.” 19It is these who cause divisions, worldly people,(AV) devoid of the Spirit. 20But you, beloved,(AW) building yourselves up in your most holy faith and(AX) praying in the Holy Spirit, 21(AY) keep yourselves in the love of God,(AZ) waiting for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ that leads to eternal life. 22And have mercy on those who doubt; 23save others by(BA) snatching them out of(BB) the fire; to others show mercy(BC) with fear, hating even(BD) the garment[g] stained by the flesh.
O My Jesus, forgive us our sins and save us from the fires of hell; lead all souls to heaven, especially those in most need of Thy mercy.
At one time in this country it was legal to have slaves and it was a just act to condemn it. We now have another legal matter in dealing with the killing of children. Yes children and if you don’t believe that is what is being done then you have never had a friend or family member to comfort after they had abortions. The greiving last a lifetime. I have had both friends and family who have had more than one abortion. You see for some women after one abortion they will become pregnant again to replace the death of their child only to have another abortion. Death is forever what we need to give women is hope and support. A lor of women will have abortions because their husband or boyfriend is the one who does NOT want the baby and I know this because three of my friends did just that,kept the husband/boyfriend and aborted their child to stay in the relationship. But mlost times the relationship doesn’t work out because the sorrow is the shadow over the relationships. In this country we have had 50 million children killed because of abortion and 50 million women hurt. People don’t know of the physical complications after abortions and the women who have died,yes died. The abortion industry is not about hope it’s about money. And for anyone to make this a racial issue needs to talk to Alveda King,Martin Luther Kings neice. She is outraged and full of sorrow of her loss of child through abortion and of all children who have died because of greed of the abortion industry and their manipulative ways of setting up shop in poor black neighborhoods. Ask Alvelda King how she feels about the millions of beautiful black babies that have been lost because of the evil abortion industry for their lust of power and money. Is this neice of Martin Luther King a racist? Just when people condemed the evil of slavery so to is it a just act to condem abortion.
I can only hope that those comments so critical of Cardinal Stafford for speaking the truth were made by other than Catholic students and faculty at CUA. Don’t you realize that by knowingly voting for an unconditional supporter of an intrinsic evil (i.e., abortion) you are placing your personal salvation in jeopardy? 50 million lives destroyed in 35 years is a death toll rivaled only by that perpetrated by the likes of Hitler, Stalin and Mao. And these numbers only reflect U.S. abortions. Please pray to the Holy Spirit that He will inspire you to accept the Church’s unequivocal teaching on the horrific murder of innocent unborn children. I will pray for you all.
Deacon Dana, you must have missed my earlier posts.
Of course we are Catholics at CUA criticizing Cardinal Stafford! Who else would be reading this site? Wake up and realize that even at CUA your hateful insults directed at our President-Elect are not appreciated or approved by the majority of people at this institution!!
54% of Catholics VOTED for Obama
Here’s one post-election study conducted in cooperation with that group Catholics in Alliance that found that a plurality of Catholics (49%) believe abortion should remain legal whereas only 45% believe it should be illegal under most circumstances.
Here is the link:
http://www.faithinpubliclife.org/content/post-electionpoll/
The annual study conducted at Georgetown University by the highly respected, number one Catholic social sciences center in the country, the Center for Applied Research in the Apostolate (CARA) at Georgetown University found 58% of Catholics favor keeping Roe v. Wade.
Here is the link:
http://cara.georgetown.edu/CCP.html
I guess all those Obama voters and Roe supporters (that is to say, a majority of Catholics….) are just like Hitler, Stalin, and Mao. Yep, just like them!
You can pray for us all you want. Just remember there are MORE of us praying for YOU.
Stop the hate. Obama is going to be an awesome president!! DC is going be UNBELIEVABLE on Inauguration Weekend.. I CAN NOT WAIT!!!!
Telling the truth about someone or something is not hate. This is not Sugar Mtn with the barkers and the colored balloons. This is Earth, where negative things are said and done. Mature people do not confuse truth with hate.
[...] For all of the above article (in green) hit this hyperlink. [...]
The claim that abortions decreased under Democrats and increased under Republicans remind me that the sun rose yesterday and I got a flat tire. Must have caused it, right? Not even in Dr. Malcolm’s fevered chaos theory.
The reason that there has been a historic pattern beginning in the early 1990s of reduced numbers of reported abortions is straightforward.
The Supreme Court signaled to the States, in Webster v. Reproductive Health Services, that regulation of the abortion liberty would be a permissible approach to limiting abortions. Subsequently, States began in earnest to consider and adopt a variety of regulations that impacted the number of abortions. Parental notice and consent laws, practice restrictions, requiring informed consent, including the giving of information to women about the development of their unborn child and the effect of abortion, together with information about risks and alternatives,
All these initiatives had the salutary effect of reducing abortion. They had this effect DESPITE unified opposition by DEMOCRATS.
It is common to see people who don’t really care what the Bible actually says,to use it as if they do and to use It in a misinformed way.
Study the book and it is clear that abortion is murder.
Also, the Laci Peterson’s Law recognizes that the unborn child is a person by convicting the murderer of two murders when they kill a pregnant woman.
Why should it be legal for the mother and doctor to kill the innocent infant when it is not for anyone else?Abortion is obviously a heinous crime if people picture the infant being removed from the womb, set on the table,and as the infant is moves around he or she is chopped up into tiny pieces!
Harsh words are the only way to see the truth.
Just because the baby is under the cover of his or her mothers skin does not make him or her any less of a baby!
Many people are so caught up in the ‘if it feels right,it must be right” syndrome. What about” if it feels and seems so terribly wrong ,maybe, just maybe it is!”. You would at least think that many would want to look a lot closer at the issue.We should not ignore such a tug at conscience.
Also,
Capitol punishment carried out by the government against someone who is guilty is Biblical.God says that the authorities bear not the sword in vain to execute wrath upon evil doers.
Evil is punished,God made it that way. A Holy a perfect God must judge evil and He sometimes uses the government among other means to carry out His Judgement.
And for those who are confused about “we are not to judge”,It is God who judges by His Word. In the Bible God declares what is sin and we are to judge all things according to what His Word says. God says it is sinful,so therefor it is.
Perfect example,eating a specific fruit is sinful if God says not to eat it. But according to humanities God hating flesh that does not seem fair,but let me put it this way,when we tell our children to do something, we actually expect them to listen even if they don’t fully understand. If the kids ask why,sometimes we explain and sometimes we say “because I said so!”. Done!!! This is even more so with the Almighty Creator of Heaven and earth!!!
For those who do not know, Adam eating the fruit shows us that man has a free will to act against God and that humans are not just robots. If God did not make that one thing for Adam not to do,obedience to God would not be legitimate and we would be just that,robots.
Many people want to judge by their feeling rather than the clear words of God. Putting feelings above what God says is at the core of human sinful nature.
So, Thank Jesus Christ for appeasing God’s wrath against us by His whole life and His sacrifice on the cross for our sins and because of Him God forgives us.
[...] night that America’s future with Obama as president will be like Jesus’ agony in the garden. The Catholic University of America Tower and LGF Quick Links reported: His Eminence James Francis Cardinal Stafford criticized [...]
And it came to pass that the selfish, the self-absorbed, the complacent, and the apathetic agreed on a champion who promised to banish their fear even as he fed it. On him they learned to depend, their bedtime prayers for him soon being directed to him, an uneasy dusk now settling upon the land.
[...] The Catholic University of America Tower and LGF Quick Links reported: [...]
One corrective. The poll which says that 54% of Catholics voted for the pro-Death Obama does not delineate between practicing Catholics and non-practicing Catholics. One poll (I forget which one) found that the majority of those Catholics who attend Mass at least every Sunday & Holy Day of Obligation voted for Mc Cain. This is at least some consolation for those of us who desire to live an authentic Catholic Christianity. What is disconcerting is that there are any Church-going Catholics who voted for a candidate who is a big-time promoter of the Culture of Death! May God have mercy on us!
[...] Cardinal James Francis Stafford, head of the Apostolic Penitentiary of the Holy See, delivered a lecture on Thursday at the Catholic University of America: Criticizing Obama as “aggressive, disruptive and apocalyptic,” he went on to speak about a decline in respect for human life and the need for Catholics to return to the values of marriage and human dignity. [...]
Well said Cardinal Stafford.
The lines are clearly drawn now as to light and darkness.
I am praying for the repentance of the US and Canada before the angel of judgment sounds the trumpet.
Hooray for Cardinal Stafford! Cardinal, thank you for speaking out against the culture of death. We know that you hit a raw nerve with those who voted for Obama, especiallly the so-called Catholics who have sold their inheritance for a bowl of broth. It is very apparent that the Truth hurts. Did you ever see or hear such invective and poison from Satan’s little helpers in all your life??!! But hey, I’ve read the bible and guess what? WE HAVE ALREADY WON. So no wonder they are so vitriolic…..their time is quickly coming to an end. Maranatha. Come Lord Jesus!
Ah, so I see, Justin, Deacon, et al.
Not one peep about the current denizen of the White House, who sanctioned torture, murder, intolerance toward those who don’t follow their beliefs and other modes of behavior that could hardly be considered “Christian.”
But Barack Obama is evil and a promoter of “the culture of death.” And those who voted for him committed a “sin.”
All this coming from practitioners of a religion that until recently, has actively promoted the persecution and forced conversions of those who didn’t subscribe to its beliefs (see Inquisition, Spanish and Crusades, The, among others).
Tell me, folks. How do you spout these hateful beliefs and look at yourself in the mirror each day? The hypocrisy would blind me.
To those who believe that abortion is murder: Do you also believe that women who willingly have abortions should be tried, and punished if found guity? If not, why not? If a law prevents abortion, shouldn’t a woman who hires a physician to perform the procedure be in essence hiring a hit man?
To those who do not believe that women who have undergone abortions should not be tried with murder, let me guess why. Deep down you believe that abortion is a sin, but it is not quite the same as taking the life of someone who has been born. Therefore you cannot justify the trial and punishment of a woman who has aborted her fetus.
Deacon do you feel it’s moral to call President-Elect Obama a “big-time promoter of the Culture of Death” ?
When did he promote a Culture of Death? When did he promote it “big time”?
This is exactly the kind of overblown, hateful rhetoric that contributes to falling attendance at Mass. I suppose you can make yourself feel better by claiming that “church going Catholics” voted McCain (although I’d like to see a URL for that, please).
But wouldn’t the bigger problem be participation in the Church keeps dropping and Catholics continue to fall out of sync with the Church tells them to do? 54% for Obama and 58% for upholding Roe (Georgetown study, URL in my previous post).
Here are the facts:
Obama does NOT support a “Culture of Death.”
He is NOT a “big time promoter” of abortion.
Obama despises abortion. Obama wants fewer abortions. Obama said he will work to reduce abortions.
The typical crap about ‘born alive’ or whatever is a disgusting manipulation of the facts regarding a tiny, miniscule number of abortions. Dishonest manipulation of facts on an extremely small percentage of cases is no way to debate an issue. Obama voted to ensure protection of the mother, that is ALL.
Republicans had 8 years in the White House to reduce abortion. The results are pitiful. Wasn’t voting for McCain an endorsement of the “Culture of Death” that Republicans continued for 8 years?
Obama supports real sex education in schools (age-appropriate). That will reduce unwanted pregnancy, the result you want. He will supplement the abstinence-only education which has been proven again and again not to work. Obama is going to make contraception available. That will reduce unwanted pregnancy, the result you want.
You might not like the methods but you will love the results. There is simply not support for a Constitutional Amendment so this is your best hope. As for the Supreme Court overturning Roe and leaving it to the states, I suppose that’s the biggest setback Obama represents for you. But it’s debatable whether that would happen even with a few more Republican appointees. A couple of the conservative justices you were counting on have shown a real reluctance to overturn precedent (Thomas aside!)
So to claim it the situation all adds up to “big-time promotion of the Culture of Death” is just ridiculous. Which is why people don’t buy it. A majority of Catholics don’t even buy it. What you are selling stinks of hate and fear.
Americans weighed the issues — ALL the issues, not just one — and voted for HOPE and CHANGE. And reconciliation. Instead of smearing us as Merchants of Death, JOIN US.
Let’s come together and reduce the number of abortions and solve some other problems as well.
this is the kind of crap that drove me away from the Catholic church. Obama is on the Church’s side in almost all ways–social justice, respect for the poor, unjust war (BIG killer there). The church is blind to the whole, and focuses on the relative mote of abortion to the exclusion of all else.
In my state the Church spent a lot of money trying to defeat stem cell research. Shouldn’t that money go towards being Christ’s people on earth? When I was hungry and all that…nary a mention of when my political positions were opposed.
From the 37th president through the 43rd, all but the two Bushes, advanced abortion rights in some respect yet, only this African American president has inspired a collective priestly voice of aggressive criticism. Even when there were great wrongs perpetrated by priest, against children, there was no collective and resounding priestly expression of indignation, only this African-American president-elect has been the object of that. Perhaps the Catholic heirarchy is more comfortable blessing the activities of the slave trade, which they did, than they are praising the day that an entire nation declared, by their vote, that they can see the magnificence of God’s creation, in all colors . . . http://www.digitaljournal.com/article/262376
My word, these Catholic Prelates are such drama queens anymore. That fact wouldn’t matter so much if they kept to their own little rarefied world, insular in its effect. But as they see their influence wane, they take exactly the opposite lesson from it that they should. They have mistaken their own dogged intolerance for some sort of principled stand. But principles are always broad issues that relate to the rest of life. This is the same mistake that the Church made in the times when slavery was acceptable. In those times their commitment to a hierarchical vision of the universe did not allow them to extend their criticism of slavery in a thoroughgoing manner. They have every right to their view on a singular moment in human affairs –the status of a fetus — that is their right, and their drama queeness consists in the failure to admit that there is no attempt to force them personally to do anything. But those who do want to learn the lessons of history and properly discern principles in their societal contexts do not deserve to be excoriated by these people. It is rude, and undemocratic. But it is more. I was in Charlie Curran’s last class in the Theology Department of CUA in the eighties. The Vatican’s awful and historically shocking treatment of Curran, a brilliant and original scholar, will forever tar CUA as a forcing ground of blinkered intolerance and paranoid reaction, at least in the realm of theology and religious studies. The apathy and self-serving of the sniveling colleagues of Curran who hung him out to dry, and de facto endorsed this monstrous travesty of scholarly integrity is a great shame. That all of this took place at an institution that had at that time had its Library de-accredited for graduate research is more than an irony. Instead of getting in high dudgeon on that sad fact, the Vatican chose to put its attention to enforcing a blinkered orthodoxy. This historical context shows Cardinal Stafford’s recent comments in a very poor light. Beyond being wrong and paranoid, they are the long term effect of of an impovershed intellectual sense at a particular institution.
Hi Hargrove, you are right. I don’t remember any cardinals calling the church’s sexual abuse of thousands of little boys and organized, systematic efforts to cover it up “apocalyptic.”
I do remember one cardinal from Boston fleeing to the Vatican to accept a job that was offered him so he wouldn’t have to answer to his congregants or to the legal investigation (later settled with enormous amounts of money that could have served the poor).
But yeah, the Democrat who started as a community organizer helping the poor, HE is apocalypic. HE is the Merchant of Evil. HE is the implosion of the cosmos.
Whatever!!
Charles et al,
Obama wants to uphold Roe v. Wade (which, by the way, is a horrible constitutional ruling, aside from the question of murder-it was not grounded in anything found in the Constitution, and usurped the power of the States to deal with the issue), he opposes laws restricting partial-birth abortion (partially delivering an infant, puncturing the skull, and sucking out the brain, and delivering him/her D.O.A ), when he was in the State Legislature in Illinois, he controlled which proposed pieces of legislation got to the floor for a vote-he refused to allow the proposed “born alive” act on to the floor for a vote! He would rather see babies who survive botched attempts at murder in the womb die than do anything to “potentially weaken Roe v. Wade”. Even the Queen of Abortion Rights-Hilary Clinton, voted for a Federal version of the “Born Alive Act”. He has pledged to sign, if enacted, the Freedom of Choice Act which will remove all State-enacted protections for the unborn in the womb. BTW, even the Law Professor, Douglas Kmiec, who deserted the Pro-Life movement to support the pro-death Obama, has stated (in a lecture of his which I attended) that FOCA could never pass Constitutional muster. But, Mr. Obama will sign it anyway. There is also the issue of race and eugenics. The founder of Planned Parenthood, Margaret Sanger, was an outspoken promoter of eugenics. She championed contraception and abortion as a means of weeding out undesirables from the human race (Blacks, Hispanics, Southern Europeans, Irish, etc.). She was once quoted to the effect that we need to have less imbeciles wandering around. It is a matter of record that the German National Socialists (Nazis) were pleased with her writings, and used them to promote their cause in Germany. As it stands today, Planned Parenthood centers always seem to pop up in minority neighborhoods. Statistics show a disproportionately high number of Black and Hispanic having their children killed at Planned Parenthood killing centers. Sounds like genocide to me. One would think that Mr. Obama would pick up on this. Even if he does, he has taken Planned Parenthood money to support his candidacy. “Money talks”. As a deacon, and the father of two kids (one of whom is adopted-her birth-mother, a college student, chose to give her life rather than abort her), and as one who has been involved in the Pro-Life movement for decades (including sidewalk counseling and picketing Planned Parenthood and other killing centers, and annual trips to the D.C. March on Washington-we pro-lifers all definitely plan on being there this year, and we plan to “ramp up” our activism), I can only see serious spiritual blindness on your part if you think that what I have outlined above is not being a big-time promotion of the Culture of Death. If Mr. Obama is not a “promoter”, he certainly is on board. The Republicans are certainly not clean, but I can’t think of one of them-not even the pro-death Republicans like Giuliani and Ridge, who stand for such evil as Mr. Obama. You also need to know that, in the mind of the Church, to which you seem to have only the faintest connection, war is not considered to be intrinsically evil. There are just wars and unjust wars. But, abortion, the direct taking of innocent human life, is ALWAYS intrinsically evil. If you don’t believe me, read the Catechism of the Catholic Church. I will pray for the Holy Spirit to enlighten you on these matters.
In Christ,
Dn. Robert
How dare you challenge my connection to the Church. I am an active Catholic and always will be. I hold positions that solid majorities of Catholics support.
The rest of your argument - Nazi Germany, racial genocide, and Obama sucking baby brains - is an absolute riot. Keep it coming.
If Obama is the second coming of Hitler I guess that explains why the Pope just called to offer his congratulations. Popes and Hitler were always the ones with a special connection. But trying to connect Obama to Hitler is everything we need to know about how hateful and desperate you, a Deacon!, have become.
Oh two more questions, Deacon:
Where’s the evidence to support your claim that a majority of Catholics who attend church voted for McCain? Is there some actual research you can point to or did you just make that up?
If there is such a thing as “just wars,” and if we are truly witnessing atrocities on the scale of genocide or a holocaust (your comparisons), then wouldn’t a WAR against Planned Parenthood be not only justified, but necessary? Do you believe in bombing the clinics, sir?
(1.) Not sure how trying to save babies from murder is hateful.
(2.) Didn’t find the above referenced poll on the internet. I might have seen it on EWTN. It definitely exists. If I find it on the net, I’ll post a link.
(3.) All of which you ridicule above about eugenicism, etc. is true. Take some time and research it yourself. You’ll have to go to pro-life sources, because the Liberal media will not give it any coverage. I don’t know how you conclude I connect Obama to Hitler. That is some stretch. There is a definite Margaret Sanger-Nazi connection, and she founded Planned Parenthood. Stands to reason. They both had the same contempt for innocent human life.
(4.) Bombing clinics? I don’t support terrorist actions like Obama’s buddy Ayers.
(5.) Your writings certainly do not give evidence of any serious connection to the Catholic Church, at least not as the Church has understood itself for over two milennia. Most of what you advocate above runs contrary to Church teaching. Suggest you get a copy of the Catechism, read it, and decide for yourself as to whether you really are Catholic.
I think we should call a “truce” at this point. It is obvious that we can only agree to disagree.
Dn. Robert
http://www.realclearpolitics.com/news/ap/us_news/2008/Nov/05/obama_results_show_gains_in_key_religious_voters.html
Here is one link (Real Clear Politics) that indicates that the “Church-Going” Catholic vote was equally divided in the presidential race. What I saw on TV actually indicated a slight majority for Mc Cain. If I find additional info, I will post it.
Hello Deacon,
1. Most reasonable people would consider calling the President-Elect “evil” and “pro-death” (your words) and “apocalyptic” (words of others that you defend) to be hateful.
2. Don’t make claims you can’t back up with facts. The link you provided in fact proves you wrong.
3. I don’t ridicule eugenics or defend Margaret Sanger. I ridicule your convoluted “guilt by association” argument that tried to draw connections between Obama, genocide, and Nazi Germany.
4. My question on bombings was to illustrate how overheated your rhetoric is. You say war is sometimes justified. You draw deliberate references to Nazi Germany and genocide. So to me it was reasonable to ask whether you believe it’s justified to respond with force. Some might even take your comments or the Cardinal’s to mean that it is immoral NOT to act. You can’t make the arguments that we’re about to experience an apocalypse or we’re in the midst of a genocide and then say it’s morally acceptable not to do anything about it. Words have meaning. Apocalypse was a very irresponsible word to use and if you read the Tower’s latest article you’ll see even Cardinal Stafford himself is trying to back away from it, coming up with a meaning of the word nobody has heard before.
Nice last-ditch-just-before-I-call-truce dig on Obama with the Ayers thing. Very artful. Classy. Sarah “I can see Russia from my house” Palin would be very proud of you.
5. I follow my conscience and the teachings of Christ the best I can. I’m not alone. Like I’ve said a hundred times here already, a majority of Catholics voted for and support Obama. And we’re not going anywhere.
HAD TO COME BACK ON THIS SITE TODAY, AFTER READING. AL,DALE AND JILL COMMENTS, FIRST OF ALL YOU SAY THAT BLACK PEOPLE VOTED FOR BARRACK OBAMA SIMPLY BECAUSE HE WAS BLACK, BUT ITS OK I GUESS THAT WHITE PEOPLE HAVE BEEN VOTING FOR WHITES ALL OVER THIS WORLD ,SINCE TIME BEGAN,SIMPLY BECAUSE THEY ARE WHITE,LOOK AT THE HISTORY BOOKS, WHITE,WHITE,WHITE,WHITE,WHITE,WHITE,BLACK PEOPLE HAVE VOTED FOR YEARS,AND SOME STILL HAVE AND ALWAYS WILL BECAUSE THEY TRULY BELIEVE THE WHITE MAN’S WORD IS LAW AND ORDER, THAT THERE IS NO ONE QUITE LIKE YOU, THEY ABSOLUTELY WORSHIP AND ADORE YOU,NOW WE DIDN’T NEED ANYONE TO TELL US HOW TO VOTE OR WHO TO VOTE FOR, HE HAD BEEN IN THE STATE SENATE FOR EIGHT YEARS AND IN THE SENATE FOR TWO, HE ELECTRIFIED SOME PEOPLE FOR THE FIRST TIME WHO DIDN’T KNOW HIM FROM 2004, THE SAME WAY PALIN DID FOR SOME OF YOU IN 2008, NOW WHEN SHE WAS MAYOR OF THAT SMALL TOWN,SHE MIGHT AS WELL HAVE BEEN A COMMUNITY ORGANIZER, THE TOWN WAS VERY SMALL, AND AS A COMMUNITY ORGANIZER IN CHICAGO HE DEALT WITH LARGE GROUPS OF PEOPLE, DIFFERENT TYPES OF PEOPLE, ALASKA ITSELF HAS ABOUT A LITTLEOVER 600,THOUSAND PEOPLE RANKING ABOUT WHAT 48TH IN THE STATES.POPULATION WISE,AND YOU KNOW AS WELL AS I DO THERE IS ONLY ONE BLACK GOVERNOR CHOSEN JAN 2008 AND ONE BLACK SENATOR, HIM,AND BOTH OF THE LAST TWO BLACK SENATORS HAVE COME FROM ILL,THE OTHER ONE FROM MASS. AND AT THAT TIME, HE WAS BY HIMSELF FOR HOW MANY YEARS, LOOKED LIKE A WHITE MAN, ALMOST, BUT HE WASN’T, WHAT IS IT WITH MASS. AND ILL.ANYWAY, VIRGINIA{OLDE VIRGINNY}CHOSE ONE 20 YEARS AGO, WONDER HOW THAT IS GOING TO LOOK ON THAT STREET THATS DEDICATED WITH STATUES TO OLD CIVIL WAR HEROES OF THE SOUTH, WHEN THEY DECIDE TO PUT HIS MEMORIAL UP, SOME OF THEM ALMOST DIED WHEN ARTHUR ASHE’S BUST WENT UP.YOU NEED TO READ UP ON ALL YOUR PRESIDENTS,WASHINGTON HAD NO DEGREE WHATSOEVER, AND HE WAS THERE HOW LONG EIGHT ?YEARS,AND I COULD GO ON AND ON ABOUT SOME OF THEM AND THEIR SO CALL CREDENTIALS AND QUALIFICATIONS THAT GOT THEM INTO THE WHITE HOUSE, BUT THEY WERE WHITE, WE COULDN’T VOTE FOR ALOT OF THEM,BUT IF WE COULD WE WOULD HAVE VOTED FOR THEM,SHO NUFF NOW,THE REAL RACIST ARE BLACK NOW YOU SAY, WELL LETS SEE, WE’VE HAD LYNCHINGS,BURNINGS,BEATINGS,WHITE PEOPLE USE TO HAVE PICNICS AND TAKE HOME SOUVINEERS SUCH AS BODY PARTS AT THE LYNCHINGS,HAVE A EAR OR A FINGER,GIVE ONE TO YOUR CHILD, OH HE’S{SHE} STANDING RIGHT HEAH, LET ME TAKE YOUR PICTURE,AND BELIEVE ME THERE ARE LOTS OF PICTURES,THE NEXT TIME THE PHOTOGRAPHY COMES TO TOWN.GO SEE IT, ITS PLAYING AT A PLACE NEAR YOU,NOW AS FAR AS CHRISTIANITY, DO YOU KNOW WHY SOME BLACK PEOPLE AND I DO SAY SOME, HAVE A BIG PROBLEM WITH IT, IT IS BECAUSE SO MANY SLAVEMASTERS WERE CHRISTIAN,WHY DO YOU THINK THERE ARE BLACK VERSIONS OF RELIGEONS,AFRICAN METHODIST,AFRICAN BAPTIST,CME USED TO CALLED COLORED METHODIST,BLACK HOLINESS INSTEAD OF WHITE PENTECOSTAL ALTHOUGHT NOW THEY’RE AS ONE SO ITS PENTICOSTAL,THERE WAS NO LOVE FOR BLACK PEOPLE IN ANY OF THOSE FAITHS,THE BIBLE WAS USED TO KEEP THEM IN SLAVERY, TO SAY THAT GOD MADE YOU AS SLAVES,IT IS YOUR DESTINY,TO SERVE THE WHITE MAN ALWAYS,SO WE CAN DO WITH YOU WHAT WE WISH,YOU AIN’T NOTHING BUT A NIGGER AND YOU GON REMAIN A NIGGER,WENT INTO THOSE CHURCHES,SAT UPSTAIRS IN THE BLACK SECTION,COMMUION CAME AFTER ALL WHITE MEMBERS WERE SERVED,THATS FOR THOSE WHO CHURCHES EVEN ALLOWED THEM IN,THAT BLACK PREACHER HAD TO PREACH ON WHAT THEY TOLD THEM TO PREACH,HAD THEN THINKING THEY WOULD SERVE THEM AS SLAVES IN HEAVEN,ITS FUNNY THAT THE QUAKERS ,OF ALL PEOPLE ,WERE THE ONES WHO MOSTLY TRIED TO HELP THEM ESCAPE TO THE NORTH,WITH FOOD AND HIDING PLACES,MAYBE WE SHOULD HAVE ALL BECOME QUAKERS,THERE IS SO MUCH MORE THAT WENT ON EVEN AFTER SLAVERY WITH THE CHURCH PERIOD,WHAT DID DR.KING SAY THEN ITS EVEN TRUE NOW THAT IS THE MOST SEGREGATED HOUR IN AMERICA ON SUNDAY,BUT THE CATHOLIC FAITH DID LEARN,THEY KNEW WHAT THEY NEEDED TO DO, WHAT GOD EXPECTED,YOU KNOW MOST CHURCHES CAME KICKING,SCREAMING,AND CRYING INTO THE 20TH CENTURY,THERE IS STILL ALOT OF RESISTANCE IN THE CHURCH,BUT IT IS WHAT HAS SUSTAINED US A PEOPLE OVER THESE YEARS,DO YOU KNOW THERE ARE OVER 600 RACIST GROUPS IN AMERICA,SOME PEOPLE SAY 800, BUT 600 TABS ARE KEPT ON, OUT OF THOSE 600 THEY WANT TO SAY THE TWO BLACK ONES ARE THE NATION OF ISLAM AND THE NEW BLACK PANTHER PARTY ARE ON THAT LIST,BECAUSE OF THE WAY THEY BELIEVE IN SEPERATISM, NOT BECAUSE OF VIOLENCE AND ALL THAT CRAZY MESS THAT WHITE RACIST GROUPS WILL ACT UPON,YET MOST BLACK PEOPLE KNOW SOME ONE OR ARE RELATED TO SOMEONE WHO IS MUSLIM,WHY,BECAUSE THEY CAME INTO ARE COMMUNITY AS COMMUNITY ORGANIZERS,EVEN THOUGH THEIR BELIEFS WERE DIFFERENT, THEY WERE SOME OF THE BEST THINGS THAT EVER HAPPENED IN BLACK NEIGHBORHOODS,AND ALOT OF THEM NOW ARE A PART OF THE ISLAMIC FAITH PERIOD, NOT THE NATION OF ISLAM,SO AS FOR ME I WILL NEVER TURN MY BACK ON THEM, THEY WORK WITH OUR CHRISTIAN MINISTERS FOR THE BETTERMENT OF OUR COMMUNITIES,,WE KNOW WHO DIED FOR US ALSO,CHRIST,AND WHEN NO ONE ELSE WOULD ,THOSE BLACK WELL KNOWN NAMES AND UN-SUNG HEROES OF THE BLACK RACE/THOSE WHITES AND JEWS ALSO ,THE LATINOS WHO FOUGHT AGAINST ALL THE RACISM,BIGOTRY AND DISCRIMINATION IN THIS COUNTRY,ALSO IF YOU WANT TO KNOW HATE, GO ON SOME OF THOSE RACIST WEBSITES,LIKE THE STORMTROOPERS,KKK,LEAGUE OF THE SOUTH,THEY HATE EVERYTHING THAT ISN’T WHITE ,ETC,ETC,BUT IF YOU DO MAKE SURE YOU HAVE HOLY WATER,A BIBLE AND A CANDLE THERE WITH YOU BECAUSE I SWEAR ITS AS IF SATAN IS IN THAT ROOM WITH YOU,IT GETS VERY DARK, THEY BELIEVE GOD HAS ABANDON THEM BECAUSE A BLACK MAN IS IN THE WHITE HOUSE,I GUESS THEY FORGOT THAT VERSE THAT SAID DEPART FROM ME UNCLEAN{EVIL}SPIRIT FOR I NEVER KNEW YOU,
Final word before the truce. The link does not prove me wrong. The article says the numbers are even. The poll which I saw cited on TV indicated a close edge for Mc Cain. I can see where an article like that above could use the word “even” in such a case. I’m in the Banking business. We use terminolgy like that on a regular basis. If I find the actual numbers, I will post them. Also, you will note that I indicated that what Obama stands for is evil, not Obama himself. I leave THAT judgement to God alone. If I hate anything, it is immoral and sinful behavior, not individuals. There is hope for every individual, including Mr. Obama, Rahm Emanuel, and that whole crew.
Peace.
Dn. Robert
Deacon, with all respect…
You wrote:
“One poll (I forget which one) found that the majority of those Catholics who attend Mass at least every Sunday & Holy Day of Obligation voted for Mc Cain.”
The link you provided says:
“The candidates were evenly split among Catholics who go to Mass weekly.”
“Evenly split” is not a “majority.” The link you provided does prove you wrong, all “banking terminology” aside.
I’d love to know what bank you work for. I have a finance degree and don’t remember learning when “evenly split” might also mean “majority.”
Maybe you saw something else on TV. Maybe. But the link you posted does, in fact, prove you wrong. And your explanation, “banking terminology” is laughable.
Charles,
Here you go. I was right, after all. McCain won regular Church-going Catholics 55% -43% per CatholicVote.com . Dn. Robert
http://zenit.org/article-24180?l=english
What Happened to the Catholic Vote?
Interview With Fidelis President Brian Burch
By Karna Swanson
CHICAGO, Illinois, NOV. 6, 2008 (Zenit.org).- More than half of U.S. Catholics voted Tuesday for a presidential candidate at odds with the Church’s stance on issues such as abortion and same-sex marriage, despite the urging of more than 50 heads of dioceses to support pro-life candidates.
Brian Burch, co-founder and president of the Catholic-based think-tank Fidelis, spoke with ZENIT about the results of the election, and why he thinks a majority of Catholics voted for Democratic candidate Barack Obama, an admitted supportor of abortion rights.
Burch also comments on the success of CatholicVote.com, a voter education effort launched by Fidelis to encourage Catholics to vote for candidates supporting life, faith and family.
The site included a short video, as well as resources to help voters research candidates, statements issued by individual bishops, and an invitation to prayer.
Q: An estimated 54% of Catholics voted for Barack Obama, despite the strong stand of over 50 heads of dioceses against candidates who support abortion. How did Obama successfully win the majority of the Catholic vote?
Burch: The notion of what constitutes the “Catholic vote” is widely debated. While Obama won the Catholic vote overall 54% - 45%, among Catholics who attend mass every week, McCain won 55% - 43%. Clearly the main reason Obama succeeded overall was the fact that Catholic voters echoed the concerns of the rest of the electorate in citing the economy as their top issue.
They concluded that Obama’s economic policies would benefit them more, and ignored the teaching authority of many bishops who explained that concerns about the economy do not justify a vote for a pro-abortion candidate.
Q: Did the strong stance of the episcopate have any noticeable affect on the election? What could the Church have done more of?
Burch: The results of the election seem to indicate that, for the most part, Catholic voters ignored the guidance of their bishops. The results simply do not show any dramatic shift away from the larger trends seen during the past several election cycles.
One area of concern was the document “Faithful Citizenship,” which was used by many organizations to improperly justify support for pro-abortion candidates. The shortcomings of the document forced many bishops to issue their own pastoral letters, leaving many voters confused. Regrettably, I believe the net effect of “Faithful Citizenship” was more confusion than clarity.
We must also remember that the bishops can only do so much. The teaching of the Church is clear, and the laity must be equally dedicated to pastoral efforts in this area. The task of evangelization is most effective, where possible, person-to-person, in a spirit of charity.
You probably have heard the saying that all politics is local. In the same sense, the moral witness of individual Catholics, in their families and in their parishes, will likely do more good than any teaching document from our bishops.
Q: Was the selection of Senator Joe Biden, a Catholic, instrumental for Obama in garnering support from the faithful?
Burch: I don’t believe Senator Biden’s Catholicism had any significant impact on Obama’s success. His faith was mentioned early on after he was selected as a running mate, but the campaign quickly dropped the references after his misguided statements on Meet the Press in order to avoid a public debate with Catholic bishops and controversies over his support for abortion.
The impact of Biden on the ticket in all likelihood may be felt down the road, as the Catholic bishops must now wrestle with a vice president who publicly disagrees with his Church on several fundamental issues.
Q: The good news is that three state constitutional amendments defining marriage as only between a man and woman passed: in California, Arizona and Florida. Is this an encouraging sign for Catholics?
Burch: This is a very encouraging sign, and represents one issue at least that transcends party lines among voters. For example, some polls suggest that as many as 65% of African American voters support traditional marriage. Thus the large turnout for Obama may have helped these marriage protection efforts. The marriage issue is a uniting issue, and should be celebrated as such.
Q: You launched CatholicVote.com to urge Catholics to vote for candidates who are pro-life, pro-family and pro-faith. You said in a commentary on the site Tuesday that the initiative has been a success. In what ways?
Burch: CatholicVote.com recorded nearly 4 million visitors in just 8 weeks. The 3:30 minute film was the primary reason people flocked to the Web site. In our film, we tried to convey the teachings of the Church in way that not only was educational, but inspirational.
Many Catholic voters continue to ignore the teachings of the Church because of political party or family loyalties, or even distrust of the Church over the past several years. We wanted viewers of our film to not only understand the authentic teachings of the Church, but to rejoice in them! If we want to effectively reach Catholics, we must appeal to their intellects, but also their hearts.
Secondly, we tried to connect the “foundational” issues of life and marriage to the larger social justice issues. Too often Catholic voters who affirm life are accused of being “single-issue voters,” when in fact it is the very defense of all human life that allows us to honestly address the issues of poverty, health care, and the economy.
The images of John F. Kennedy and Martin Luther King, Jr., and other graphics in our film were not phony political ploys, but instead attempts to connect the priority of the issues of life and marriage to the great number of concerns that require our attention in protecting the common good.
Q: What is CatholicVote’s mission and role now that the election is over?
Burch: Like all those who were involved heavily in this election, right now we are focusing on getting more sleep and seeing our families again. We do however have some big plans for CatholicVote.com, and will be making them known in the weeks and months ahead.
The new political climate requires that Catholics be engaged like never before to demand that the dignity of all human life be respected. Our educational mission will continue to make sure that Catholics and all people of good will understand what the Church teaches, and why they must be engaged in public life. Stay tuned!
Q: What are the issues on which the Church and President-elect Obama will be able to work together?
Burch: One of the promises made by Senator Obama involved his pledge to assist women in crisis pregnancies. I am hopeful that he will follow through on this pledge without succumbing to the inevitable demand by pro-abortion groups for more taxpayer money.
Catholics also have a keen interest in a workable immigration solution that respects the dignity of the immigrant, and favors the reunification of families while also creating an environment in which the rule of law is upheld.
Finally, I am hopeful that the new administration will recognize the charitable contributions of Catholic organizations and faith based programs, while respecting their religious identity. During the campaign, Senator Obama expressed a willingness to work with religiously affiliated agencies, and many people expect there to be new funding for social service organizations of this type.
Because of the huge contribution by Catholics in the areas of education, health care, and concern for the needy, I expect a number of new programs will be created that could benefit those involved in this important work.
Again, I am hopeful that the religious identity of Catholic organizations, particularly the rights of conscience of those involved in these organizations, is respected and protected in any new programs undertaken.
[...] Doug Kmiec comments to the Tower on Cardinal Stafford’s controversial remarks on Barack [...]
[...] J. Francis Stafford, head of the Apostolic Penitentiary of the Holy See, is standing by controversial comments he made about President-elect Barack Obama during an on-campus lecture last Thursday. In an address [...]
Hi Deacon, I took a look and did some hunting around. But that’s not a survey. It’s one blogger interviewed by another blogger. The second blogger throws out a statistic (as you did) but where is the actual poll numbers to back it up? What organization conducted the poll? He does not say. He does not provide the pollster or link or any further information on his blog, either. You guys all behave the same way - when you don’t like the truth, invent your own truth out of thin air. Why don’t you email Brian and ask where he gets that number and whether he can help you back it up? I gave you URLs for all the polls I cited, not interviews with bloggers.
Charles -
I doubt you will ever get people like Robert Behrens to see things differently. He has fashioned a steel wall around his mind and heart which locks in what he has accepted and locks out what casues disruption to a narrow look at life. If Jesus came back today, some people would have to wait for an official endorsement before hearing his words. God is only present in what they accept, not in what challenges them to expand. I think there is great hope in people like you who will not allow others to persuade you that you are not Catholic. We do not have to agree on every single thing that comes along. I do agree that abortion is wrong, but think the Church has approached it all wrong and as a single issue when it is a very complex one. We do have to have a willingness to keep exploring possibilities. I encourage you to continue to take ownership of the Church. Remember, you are not simply the “future” of the Church, you are part of the Church today. You are called to be a sign of hope to those who have been trying to get the dialogues going for a long time.
To others who have said they were driven from the Church - reconsider. Help to challenge and renew. None of us can simply have what we want, but when we don’t get it, it should cause us to work harder, constantly evaluate our own beliefs to believe that they are God centered, and never be willing to give up our importance in God’s plans.
Remember, if we don’t give up - one day we will get to where God wants us to be.
Charles,
I seriously doubt that Zenit would knowingly post anything that could not be confirmed. I see no reason for me to question the veracity of what is put forth by Catholic Voter.com or Zenit. They are both respectable sources of information. I heard virtually the same stat on TV. If you think they are not stating the truth, perhaps YOU should e-mail them. You are the one who keeps repeating the fact that “Obama got the Catholic vote”. It is a scandal that such a thing would occur. It is an embarassment to the Church. All that tells me is that there a lot of Catholics who need to be evangelized and catechized to the point that they won’t think it’s OK to vote for politicians who want the baby-killing holocaust to continue. BTW, I thank God that the jurisdiction for which I was ordained to the Diaconate is not burdened with any subjectivistic, neo-Modernist clergy who see no need to pay any attention to legitimate authority in the Church. God save us.
You are in my prayers.
Dn. Robert
Dear Priest, thank you.
I’m not really the type of person to provoke. I usually keep quiet, try to be respectful of all different opinions.
What really angered me about the Deacon was his suggestion I leave the church. His suggestion that I’m not a Catholic. From one anonymous commenter to another spewing insults online, maybe I could understand it. But from a Deacon? From a Deacon who’s been trained to counsel others in faith and bring them to God? I just felt really insulted and hurt.
The thing is, I don’t hold extreme views. My views are truly mainstream. They’re what most Catholics believe. I voted for the guy most Catholics voted for. My support for things like contraception and yes, even gay rights — of course I know those aren’t the positions of the church but if you surveyed my age group (and in the case of contraception, all Catholics), you would see that most Catholics agree with me. Whether God will ultimately judge me right or wrong on those issues is one thing. But for a Deacon, who is supposed to be a messenger of Christ, to tell me there’s no place in the church for someone like me is just so contrary to how I interpret the message of Jesus.
Then again, look at the hate these people spread. Every time they bring up Hitler and Nazis in connection with Obama I just don’t know whether to laugh or cry. How can ANY educated person believe Barack Obama is reminiscent of Hitler. I suppose if they believe that, they are truly lost causes.
What did you make of Cardinal Stafford himself backtracking on the comments? I take that to be the closest we’ll get to an apology. You know, it’s ok to hurl hateful insults using “western” terms if you actually meant those terms in “non-western” ways.
Thanks again for your note.
Charles
Well it is interesting how many ignorant people will talk about things they know nothing about. Typical losers who think they know the basic cathecism. Please do us real Catholics a favor and just shut up. To think that we are going to engage a world full of secularist, marxist, atheist, etc. who haven’t a clue what is important for their soul.
This stupidity of comparing democrats to republican is laughable. If you are Catholic be prepared to stand and die for your faith. If you are not ready to die then move over. For the rest of you who claim to be religious, I suggest that you either start reading a catechism or sit and listen to those who know what faith really is. If I sound cold to you, it is because you are ignorant of the faith.
To truly love you, means FIRST to tell you the TRUTH. If you don’t want to hear the TRUTH then find yourself another site. The TRUTH is if I didnt’ LOVE God FIRST I couldn’t possible LOVE you. The TRUTH is YOU ARE GOING to HELL if you don’t change your ignorant ways. I will Pray for your souls, but you must take action and seek the Truth or Die Eternally.
[...] J. Francis Stafford, head of the Apostolic Penitentiary of the Holy See, is standing by controversial comments he made about President-elect Barack Obama during an on-campus lecture last Thursday. In an address [...]
It totally astounds me that, after all these centuries, this bunch of clowns could still command the respect and devotion of such a sizable portion of the world’s population. All religions seem wierd…… some just seem wierder than others.
I would like to say to those that are in two minds about this topic, the best they could do is to study their Catholic Faith. How can you love God and do His Will, if you don’t know Him?
We have an incredibly rich Faith, and if one studies the Church Doctors, including St Thomas Aquinas, St Jerome, St Augustine, St Ambrose, St Gregory, St Athanasius etc, one would come to that realization.
I find it amazing that people today including Priests (and for that matter many Bishops), are so proud of the fact that they are so much more intelligent, enlightened and equipped to interpret scriptures, and the teachings of the Church, than what has been passed down through Tradition.
It is not surprising that most Priests today haven’t studied The Summa Theologica of St. Thomas Aquinas. It is too difficult for them, and goes against their liberalism. Their argument that all you need for salvation is belief in Jesus, because he is so full of love and forgiveness, and that is all that matters, and we have no other obligations, are obviously ignorant of the Sin of presumption.
Ignorance of our Faith is not an excuse, and if it culpable ignorance, because one has been conned into believing the lie of liberty of Conscience, and not the teaching of the Church, then God help you.
And for those who are suppose to be the teachers of the Catholic Faith – the Priests, the Bishops etc, they have a far greater need to be careful of upholding the Truth. Mark 9:41 is especially relevant to them. Although your Seminaries have abolished the teachings of the Church Doctors, the Council of Trent and the Encyclicals of the various Popes (especially those of the Pope Pius X, XI and XII – who foresaw the liberalism entering the Church), and replaced it with teachings on psychology to “deal with modern times”, remember that you may be held responsible for souls that may be lost because of your misdirections to them, and your humanistic arguments.
Disobedience and Pride, was the fall of Satan. Those who ignore the teaching of the Church, because they “can argue the point” of what they personally believe are no different. Face up to the fact that the Church is not a democracy. The Church is infallible on issues of morals and Faith, and without that infallibility we would always have thousands of differing opinions.
Yes – we need more Bishops speaking up for the Truth. That is their job and they will be judged accordingly. And if that means condemning the bad, immoral policies coming from Government, so be it. Far too many don’t fight for the Church that they represent anymore, so rather than hurt someones ‘feelings’ they rather bend to public opinion, and abandon what they are suppose to fight for.
[...] student newspaper of Catholic University has published this article on a speech given by Cardinal Stafford last week. His Eminence James Francis Cardinal Stafford criticized President-elect Barack Obama as [...]
To Larry on the question of prosecuting women.
Prior to Roe v. Wade, women were not prosecuted as a general matter for their role in obtaining abortions. While studying law at a fine Jesuit university, St. Louis University, I did a survey on abortion in Missouri. No cases ever prosecuting women for abortions performed on them. Almost all deaths of women resulting from abortions involved regularly licensed medical doctors. The stereotypical and racist image of the “old black mammie’ who knew how to use a coat hanger just didn’t bear out. Doctors lacked the humility and fear to try surgical methods. Others, nurses, midwives, osteopaths, tuck pointers, etc., tended toward medicinal abortion by teas and potions, or the use of hot baths, and jarring horse rides, etc.
Even when abortion was illegal, at least in Missouri, the chances of dying were always better if your doctor was an abortionist. I suppose that is because, then, as now, the practice does not pull from the top of most medical school classes.
The responses by some that call themselves Catholic shows how creeping secularism has corrupted not just some so-called Catholics but Christianity in General. You cannot call yourself Christian and not agree with Cardinal Stafford. He is right on! Many hate filed Christians need to read the Bible and understand the difference between the killing of Innocents (Babies) and the killing of those that have carried out the Devils work and remain non-repentant. Society has a right to protect itself from evil. What is evil about an unborn baby? In their sad defense of their indefensible positions they illuminate their sins and will be held to account for them when they come to judgment. For their sake I hope they find a better defense or come to truly believe that Jesus is Lord, their Salvation and the truth is in the Bible for all to see if they so chose! In that they have true Choice!
Semper Fidelis!
John Fitzgerald
“Guard against the impostures of pretended patriotism.” –George Washington
“Freedom is never more than one generation away from extinction. We didn’t pass it to our children in the bloodstream. It must be fought for, protected, and handed on for them to do the same, or one day we will spend our sunset years telling our children and our children’s children what it was once like in the United States where men were free.” –Ronald Reagan
“I find it amazing that people today including Priests (and for that matter many Bishops), are so proud of the fact that they are so much more intelligent, enlightened and equipped to interpret scriptures, and the teachings of the Church, than what has been passed down through Tradition.”
It does not matter how they interpret it, Zed. It all still remains a total bunch of “traditional” superstitious nonsense. And “intelligent, enlightened” people don’t even buy into all that crap. Had not the Proto-Orthodox view of Christianity won out over the other flavors of early Christianity, your “traditional” interpretations would look totally different anyhow.
I do not know whether or not there exists a Supreme Power in the Universe. I do not believe that we can ever know such things. But I sometimes suspect that people who believe in a Personal, Creator God directly involved in the affairs of human beings have a rather incredibly over-simplistic view of the Universe.
TLewis: “Typical losers who think they know the basic cathecism. Please do us real Catholics a favor and just shut up.”
Jesus? Jesus is that you talking?
[...] J. Francis Stafford, head of the Apostolic Penitentiary of the Holy See, is standing by controversial comments he made about President-elect Barack Obama during an on-campus lecture last Thursday. In an address [...]
[...] Around the Web: Worth a Look The CUA student newspaper reports on Francis Cardinal Stafford’s comments about Obama (with audio). Discover ancient Rome with Google Earth. The incredible story of [...]
[...] the Catholic University of America’s Tower reported that during a recent address at the university, His Eminence James Francis Cardinal [...]
“What really angered me about the Deacon was his suggestion I leave the church.”
Charles,
Please show me where I said that. From what is posted above, here is what I did say:
“Charles’ comments above, which you reference, are so alien from Catholic Orthodoxy that it would take ages to refute each point. I suggest that he get a copy of the Catechism of the Catholic Church, read it, and them come back to the discussion. ”
AND
“You also need to know that, in the mind of the Church, to which you seem to have only the faintest connection, war is not considered to be intrinsically evil. ”
Where did I suggest that you leave the Church? I am saying that it appears that you have, knowingly or unknowingly, distanced yourself from the mind of the Church, and, thus, from Christ Himself, based on your positions outlined above. . What I am imploring is that you, like all of us, seek to align yourself WITH the mind of the Church. Our Lord Jesus Christ wants to save souls and draw them to Him, and not to lose them.
Dn. Robert
“Look a little closer at your statements and you will see that you have made Councils, documents, and the rest equal to God. ” (comment by “A Priest”)
To “A Priest”,
The Catholic Church, not I, teaches, and has taught since the beginning, that the sources of Divine Revelation are both Holy Scripture and Holy Tradition (it is expressed a little differently in the East-but the meaning is the same). In other words, these things come from God. They are His Word. That is our starting point.
On this issue of civil law and Church law, I want to clarify that I do not think that these take any precedence over a relationship with God. The latter is top priority. Our calling is first to evangelize, catechize, and allow ourselves to be used to bring people closer to God. But, we are ALSO called to build a society which aligns itself with the values of the Gospels, as a means of facilitating people’s salvation, and not putting people in a position by which it is easier for them to suffer a falling away from God. This calling is secondary to the first. Our difficulty, at this point in time, is that whole generations have been lost to the Church because of minimal evangelization, poor catechesis, bad liturgy, poor seminary formation, and negligence in teaching the Faith on the part of hierarchs (the latter is changing-witness Cardinal Stafford’s remarks). At the same time, the culture is now rejecting a political, economic, and social way of life which is, at least partially, grounded in Christian values. We prioritize bringing people to, or back to, God, but we also, almost simultaneously MUST fight those in the culture who want to further de-Christianize society with legislation which endangers the very lives of the most vulnerable (including the unborn). Enacting laws which prohibit abortion, & other intrinsic evils, makes it more difficult to carry out those acts. At least some lives will be saved. This is actually a way of living out what Our Lord taught about the final judgement. What we do for the least of our brethren, we do for Him.
Dcn. Robert
Deacon!!
You’re back! I thought you had promised a truce but I suppose as a Deacon you’re allowed to make false promises.
Hey good thing you still check the comments here because I am still waiting for that research that demonstrates Catholic church-goers voted McCain. An interview with a blogger doesn’t count - did you find any actual research yet? Or have you stopped making the claim?
And as for you suggesting I leave the church, here’s a direct quote from one of your comments above. Sure sounds like a suggestion to me. I guess I realize by now now you’re not a very truthful guy, but still, it’s embarrassing for me to have to point this out to you. I wouldn’t, except you directly challenged me.
Deacon:
“Perhaps Charles would feel more comfortable in one of those “easy-going” churches (or, rather, “ecclesial communities”).”
If that is not a suggestion I leave the church, I don’t know what one is.
I never thought my faith would be so insulted from a leader within the church. I do feel tested, but at the same time I do feel the discussion here has strengthened my convictions and brought me closer to God. So thank you, Deacon. I forgive you.
And I pray for you, Deacon. I pray that you will stop lying over and over. And I pray that you will stop hating President-Elect Obama.
Happy Thanksgiving,
Charles
“You’re back! I thought you had promised a truce but I suppose as a Deacon you’re allowed to make false promises.”
Charles,
You win on that issue. I am definitely not perfect. I had every intention to move on. But I felt I had to make it clear that I am not suggesting that you leave the Church. To me, this is more important than keeping a promise to stop the dialogue. Frankly, I forgot about the quote you provided, and did not pick up on it when I was searching for my prior comments. However, when I stated that you might feel comfortable elsewhere, it was based on those positions you took on a variety of things which are at odds with what the Church officially teaches. Rather than leave the Church, I think you owe it to yourself to take a hard look at where the Church stands officially on the matters you enumerate (and with which you are at odds), and to see if you can make the Church’s position your own. I had to clarify my comments on that issue. I don’t want anybody to leave the Church.
“Hey good thing you still check the comments here because I am still waiting for that research that demonstrates Catholic church-goers voted McCain. An interview with a blogger doesn’t count - did you find any actual research yet? Or have you stopped making the claim?”
I trust Catholicvote.com and Zenit.org as sources. Zenit is a compiler of news pertinent to Catholicism on a global basis. I am sure that if there were any question as to the veracity of the quoted poll figures as to how church-going Catholics vote, they would come out with a correction, or somebody would “nail them” on it. If I come across the actual poll they quote, I’ll post it. But, since you are the one who doubts the veracity of their statements, I think that you should contact them, challenge them, and post your findings.
“I never thought my faith would be so insulted from a leader within the church. I do feel tested, but at the same time I do feel the discussion here has strengthened my convictions and brought me closer to God. So thank you, Deacon. I forgive you”.
I am not insulting whatever faith you may have. But, somewhere, it seems that you have been fed false ideas as to what the Faith is all about. Again, I base this on the positions you took on various things discussed above. In your discussion with “A Priest”, you even acknowledged that you disagree with the Church on a few very important things. In the Catholic Church in the U.S. since at least the 60’s, there has been a division between those who docilely accept and seek to spread the Faith as it has been handed down by the Lord through His Apostles, and through their successors, down through the ages (commonly referred to as orthodox Catholics), and those who want to modify it according to their own philosophical predispositions and agendas (usually referred to as modernists, progressives, liberals, or dissidents). I don’t know you, but it sounds to me like you have been listening to the voices from the latter camp. All I am saying is you should check out the first group. In addition to regular reading of Holy Scripture, I highly recommend reading, slowly, and in detail, the Catechism of the Catholic Church. If you have any questions, seek out a priest noted for his orthodoxy and loyalty to the Magisterium of the Church. Forgiveness accepted, and reciprocally returned. At all costs,seek to grow closer in union with God.
“I pray that you will stop lying over and over. And I pray that you will stop hating President-Elect Obama.”
I never deliberately lie. I seek at all times to tell the truth. I hate nobody. I may hate what they do and stand for , but not them, because salvation is possible for all. Keep the president-elect in your prayers. Perhaps he will receive and accept the grace from God to become a fighter FOR innocent, born & unborn, human life.
In Christ,
Dn. Robert
Hello Deacon,
After all this debate back and forth how giving me a tiny bit of credit and assume I know the church’s official position. I’m not an idiot who has been fed “false ideas” or needs to read “slowly” to understand! (nice insult, telling me to read “slowly”! I almost peed my pants reading that one). None of the disagreement is due to ignorance of the church’s position.
I’ve said I disagree on Obama for President; upholding Roe v Wade (although I am against abortion personally); giving civil right of marriage to gays (Church doesn’t need to perform/accept); women priests; married priests; and stem cell research.
A majority of Catholics already agree with me on the first two and I’d guess maybe the last. Gay marriage is inevitable as is stem cell research. I’d put the odds at 50-50 on women or married priests within my lifetime. Hopefully we can at least agree these are the changes coming, right or wrong, like it or not.
So I think you’re the one with the problem here. I am the future of the church and you are fighting a losing battle to keep the status quo. Your side is led by cranky old men who call Obama apocalyptic and get laughed at from CNN on down. My side is the “great silent majority,” not in the Nixon way but the majority of Catholics who stay in the church not because of what they are told but because of what they believe. They don’t believe Obama is evil. They don’t believe in banning abortion for people of all religions even if it is against theirs. They don’t believe in making gays and women second-class citizens. They know Jesus would agree with them on all these things — a more loving, equal, just society — and that the church will eventually figure it out, a few decades too late, just like always. Of course the church is not a democracy. But these “dissidents” from the “60s” are rapidly becoming the majority so eventually the Vatican will either support the changes or be faced with either a collapse of US church or a church that breaks in two.
If I may give you some advice in return, you need to start thinking for yourself about what’s right and how humanity can learn and improve and truly follow the teaching of Jesus instead of just blindly following instructions that have been passed down within an institution that was designed to amass and protect political power and influence. I don’t see much of Jesus when I look at a hateful man like Cardinal Stafford. I don’t think many people do.
And as for your credibility on the church-going vote, you already contradicted your own argument twice on that. The RCP link quoted Pew Research on exit polls saying the church vote was even. Then you told me that in “banking terminology” that you commonly use, “even” sometimes means “majority.” I guess that’s one of those concepts I am too stupid to understand, maybe I should read the entire dictionary, slowly? Anyway, I’ll stick with the credibility of Pew Research and you can trust the word of an extremist blogger who can’t even write a headline about Catholics who disagree with him unless he puts “Catholic” in quotes. Yeah, he’s objective. Sounds like you guys should buddy up and decide who gets to stay in the church.
I’m done with the discussion.
Charles
Charles,
You are in your own church. BTW, the younger folks in the Catholic Church are flocking to orthodoxy. Take a look at the makeup of the crowds at Old St. Mary’s in DC who attend the Old Rite Mass. Take a look at the makeup of the crowds at the Annual March For Life in DC. Liberal seminaries, religious houses, monasteries and convents are drying up and shutting down, while new orthodox institutions (for example, seminaries of the Fraternity of St. Peter, and the Institute of Christ the King, the convent of Dominican Sisters in Michigan formed by Mother Assumpta Long, and houses founded by Mother Theresa’s Missionaries of Charity) don’t have enough room to put all the candidates. No, the future is with the orthodox. The liberal baby-boomers from the 60’s (unfortunately, my misled generation) are dying off. They have contracepted themselves out of existence. Enough is enough. I am also done. I’ve said what I have to say.
For the Social Kingship of Jesus Christ,
Dn. Robert
Inside the US my views are shared by a majority of Catholics already, today, and they will become even more popular with each passing generation.
Outside the US, orthodoxy is indeed growing but in such violent, fanatical ways that many experts expect a schism within the religion that rivals what we see happening to Islam. The growing populations of orthodox Catholics outside the US have widespread beliefs in witchcraft and exorcisms and prophecy as an every day reality and believe demons can possess ordinary objects that be battled with supernatural lucky charms. Catholics in the Congo hacked up over 1000 witches in 2001. A Catholic archbishop from Asia visited Vancouver recently and was so offended by the totem poles preserved in a park that he demanded an exorcism take place immediately. These are facts. Christians in Africa now organize as warlords to kill nonbelievers. Zambia and other countries say they want to be “pure” Christian nations. So that’s the future of the “growing” orthodox side of the church.
This article is a few years old which makes it even more interesting - the predictions it makes are clearly happening. It’s long but worth a read for anyone with an open mind who enjoys history. It documents all the assertions I’ve made here.
http://www.theatlantic.com/doc/200210/jenkins
Charles – you seem to be loosing your intellectual reasoning when you need to resort to saying the orthodox Catholics are “cranky old men….belief in witchcraft and exorcisms and prophecy….” etc., and give extreme examples to justify yourself.
The Protestant assertions shines through with that link for those with an “open mind”. You have a need to constantly justify yourself. Why?
RE: “They know Jesus would agree with them on all these things — a more loving, equal, just society — and that the church will eventually figure it out, a few decades too late, just like always.”
They say history repeats itself….your assertions smell of the Heresy of the Sillon, of which St Pius X wrote about: http://www.the-pope.com/sillon.html Will you read this Charles – or do you consider this to be written by a “cranky old man”?
It’s no accident that ‘obedience’ (sic) is the now the new sin of the liberals of the 21st Century, after all a far greater intellectual being than all of us declared: “I will not serve!”…..and you know what – Satan probably thought that he was justified in declaring that.
I think that it was G.K. Chesterton (but stand corrected if it wasn’t) that said that the Catholic Church had FIVE distinguishing marks: ONE, HOLY, CATHOLIC, APOSTOLIC and PERSECUTED.
So I expect the true Catholic Church to be, like Christ, always persecuted, so I know that there will be those that will continue to mock the Tradition handed down through Peter and his successors until the end of time.
The truth is Charles, that the Church will always have sinners, betrayers, doubters and the such, but there is always the Truth – and to be a Catholic is to believe that The Church’s teachings on morals and Faith, handed down from, and since Christ, are the Truth. To stray from the Truth is being disobedient, and if you believe something different to what the Church teaches, then isn’t that being protestant?
Charles – why do YOU consider it important to be ‘labeled’ a Catholic?
For those who do not have the time to read the full paper of the Sillon mentioned above (http://www.the-pope.com/sillon.html) here is an excerpt….note how it is SO relevant today and the second sentence is almost word for word for some of Charles’ ‘arguments’:-
“We wish to draw your attention, Venerable Brethren, to this distortion of the Gospel and to the sacred character of Our Lord Jesus Christ, God and man, prevailing within the Sillon and elsewhere. As soon as the social question is being approached, it is the fashion in some quarters to first put aside the divinity of Jesus Christ, and then to mention only His unlimited clemency, His compassion for all human miseries, and His pressing exhortations to the love of our neighbor and to the brotherhood of men. True, Jesus has loved us with an immense, infinite love, and He came on earth to suffer and die so that, gathered around Him in justice and love, motivated by the same sentiments of mutual charity, all men might live in peace and happiness. But for the realization of this temporal and eternal happiness, He has laid down with supreme authority the condition that we must belong to His Flock, that we must accept His doctrine, that we must practice virtue, and that we must accept the teaching and guidance of Peter and his successors. Further, whilst Jesus was kind to sinners and to those who went astray, He did not respect their false ideas, however sincere they might have appeared. He loved them all, but He instructed them in order to convert them and save them. Whilst He called to Himself in order to comfort them, those who toiled and suffered, it was not to preach to them the jealousy of a chimerical equality. Whilst He lifted up the lowly, it was not to instill in them the sentiment of a dignity independent from, and rebellious against, the duty of obedience. Whilst His heart overflowed with gentleness for the souls of good-will, He could also arm Himself with holy indignation against the profaners of the House of God, against the wretched men who scandalized the little ones, against the authorities who crush the people with the weight of heavy burdens without putting out a hand to lift them. He was as strong as he was gentle. He reproved, threatened, chastised, knowing, and teaching us that fear is the beginning of wisdom, and that it is sometimes proper for a man to cut off an offending limb to save his body. Finally, He did not announce for future society the reign of an ideal happiness from which suffering would be banished; but, by His lessons and by His example, He traced the path of the happiness which is possible on earth and of the perfect happiness in heaven: the royal way of the Cross. These are teachings that it would be wrong to apply only to one’s personal life in order to win eternal salvation; these are eminently social teachings, and they show in Our Lord Jesus Christ something quite different from an inconsistent and impotent humanitarianism. ”
Much more eloquent than anything that I could say. Please, I pray that people read the full article….. http://www.the-pope.com/sillon.html
Another quote from the same article….note that this was written by Pope St Pius X to the French Bishops and Archbishops in 1910.
“As for you, Venerable Brethren, carry on diligently with the work of the Saviour of men by emulating His gentleness and His strength. Minister to every misery; let no sorrow escape your pastoral solicitude; let no lament find you indifferent. But, on the other hand, preach fearlessly their duties to the powerful and to the lowly; it is your function to form the conscience of the people and of the public authorities. The social question will be much nearer a solution when all those concerned, less demanding as regards their respective rights, shall fulfill their duties more exactingly.”
Note how RELEVANT it is to the matter at hand, and why it is the DUTY of the leaders of the Catholic Church - the Cardinals, Archbishops and the Bishops, to criticize any immoral policies put out by Governments. It is clearly a pointless exercise to argue politics - a.k.a. Republical v’s Democrat …. anyone who puts out, or supports immoral, or policies directly attacking the Catholic Faith, should be criticized by the Bishops (etc), so that the Catholic faithful are clear on the Church’s standing on that matter. N.B. Notice that I said Catholic Faithful - a Catholic Bishop (or Cardinal, Archbishop) would be ‘throwing pearl to the swine’ if he sends a private letter to a non-Catholic politician). This statement by the Cardinal is not intended for Obama, it is for us Catholics. “Let those that can hear, hear!”
Hi Zed this will be a short answer, it’s Thanksgiving after all.
The Sillon paper was written in 1910 so it carries about the same authority and credibility as Cardinal Stafford has today. How much authority and credibility is that? Practically zero. They are men, not God. They are speaking and writing two thousand years too late. I’m not interested in a cardinal speaking to me about what Jesus *really* meant. I’m interested in Jesus speaking to me directly. I’ll take the New Testament and MY interpretation of it, thank you very much. I’ll pray and have my own conversation with God.
You can choose filter your conversation through the motives, prejudices, and political objectives of cardinals. Cardinals had agendas in 1910 just like cardinals have agendas in 2008. Seems to me if it was so important to condemn homosexuals, for example, Jesus might have mentioned it himself even one time?
You ask why I insist on being ‘labeled’ a Catholic. Talk about persecution being a constant part of Catholicism!! At least we can agree on that!! My faith, my religion is being persecuted from within the church, including by so-called Deacons who are willing to repeatedly make assertions easily proven false in order to threaten and intimidate my faith.
I insist on being labeled Catholic because I AM CATHOLIC. My religion is unshakable by you or anyone else. You can try to say I don’t belong, but as I have stated again and again, my views on things like Obama and upholding Roe are what solid majorities in US believe. Whether we are ultimately judged (by God, not you) as right or wrong is one thing. For you to suggest that half of the US Catholic church is not truly Catholic but merely “labeled” that way is quite another. That’s pretty bold. Pretty assuming and pretty judgmental. How can you see with that giant log stuck in your eye?
One last answer, I keep “justifying” myself because people who debate me here have a complete disregard for the truth. Every fact or statistic I cite, regarding Catholics supporting Roe or Obama, for example, I provide the documentation. Compare that to Deacon Robert, for example. He makes claims he can’t back up. His “sources” are bloggers who share his extremist philosophy. When confronted with actual research that contradicts his assertions, he makes ludicrous claims like how the word “even” can be the same as word “majority” since the two concepts are, according to him, interchangeable within the “banking industry” HA!
I always provide the link because I think a good argument in part depends on the credibility of the person making their case. If people can see how the Deacon is willing to lie to about his statistics, or lie about whether he did or did not suggest I leave the church, then hopefully - hopefully - they will be less likely to trust his arguments and his so-called authority.
Anyway I was wondering if anyone else was reading this and apparently you were… so I did want to reply. I enjoy the debate and I hope we can discuss things without attacking whether or not we are Catholic. You, sir, are in no position to sit in judgement of my faith.
Happy Thanksgiving!
Charles
No Charles - at no point in my reply was I in judgment of YOU. Indeed I have pointed out however the position of Catholicism over the last 2000 years, and how your personal viewpoint contrasts that, and how it has been condemned in the past by the Church.
If you (and as you pointed out - millions more ‘catholics’) choose to have your own version of Catholicism, that my friend is your (and their) choice.
Charles - you may think this curious, but I had no intention of having a dialogue with you, because I realize that I can’t convert your thinking. But when you and ‘A Priest’ start putting forward views that have been condemned by the Catholic Church (which you say are irrelevant to your beliefs), including Christ and St Paul, I too realize that there may be those reading this and are ignorant of those past teachings. It is my duty to defend my Faith - the same Faith that countless thousands have fought and died for since its inception. And maybe, just maybe, some of those reading this will *think* about and begin studying their Faith. I am grateful that someone did it for me, as I was deceived into believing a false ‘modern’ catholic doctrine in my past.
So my replies are for those who are confused….read and study your Catholic Faith as if your soul depends on it - because it does. Read my original reply about “culpable ignorance”. It is a Catholic’s duty to study their Faith.
Charles - my dialogue with you is now finished. Although somehow I think you will want to have the last word
Happy Thanksgiving!
Hi Zed thanks for giving me the last word, I am glad to take it.
My message to the people reading this is that people like Zed and Deacon Robert and Cardinal Stafford have built a false church that blindly worships the words or men, not the words of God. As Catholics they have lost their way. They are the bitter, marginalized extremists of the sort that often ends in violence, as bitter, marginalized groups fighting for ‘tradition’ tend to do. Look at Cardinal Stafford preaching about the apocalypse and Deacon ranting about Hitler. Seriously! Manufacturing this kind of hate over they guy who won 54% of the Catholic vote is just ludicrous and of course most people see that.
No Catholic is required to let a man like Cardinal Stafford tell them how to vote, or whether to use birth control, or who they can marry. Remember, cardinals just like him used to instruct their followers that slavery was perfectly acceptable in God’s eyes, and that whites should not marry blacks. They were wrong. Horribly wrong.
True Catholic can and should decide for themselves whether they agree and follow what the church teaches. You are supposed to think, not follow blindly, especially when some of the teaching is just so grossly out-of-touch with the true message of Jesus. Most Catholics don’t follow the ‘condemnations’ of Cardinals. That doesn’t mean they are not Catholic and it doesn’t mean they won’t be saved.
Zed a hundred years ago you’d be arguing just as passionately me that slavery was OK because a Cardinal says so. Your side always acts like that. And you always LOSE because you are WRONG.
Charles
Charles,
Here’s a link to an MSNBC exit poll. If you scroll down to “Church attendance by Religion”, you will see that Church-going Catholics, in this exit poll, voted, by a majority, for Mc Cain. Obama got the “backslider vote”! I’m sure you’ll probaby find some way to charge me with lying or faking this one, or that MSNBC is lying. Or, you’ll make an issue that the poll reflects closer numbers than those quoted by Catholicvote.com (it does-it lines up with my original point that “about even” and “majority” are not necessarily contradictory-this one is “about even”, but gives a majority to Mc Cain).
I said I would be back when I found a link to a poll on this matter. At any rate, here it is. Oh, and I forgot–”HA” to you!
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/26843704
Church attendance by Religion
Category Obama McCain % Total
Protestant/Attend weekly 32 67 15
Protestant/Do not attend weekly 45 54 15
Catholic/Attend weekly 49 50 12
Catholic/Do not attend weekly 58 40 14
All Others 63 35 42
Enjoy your reading!
Deacon Robert
Charles,
You probably think I faked this one, or that I am somehow lying. But here is a link to an MSNBC exit poll which supports my assertion on the Church-going Catholic vote. Scroll down to “Church attendance by Religion”. Hmmmm…this one is “about even”,but with a MAJORITY going to Mc Cain. Oh yes, but the “Deacon” is only a “so-called Deacon”, and is a liar. I guess MSNBC lies too!
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/26843704
Church attendance by Religion
Category Obama McCain % Total
Protestant/Attend weekly 32 67 15
Protestant/Do not attend weekly 45 54 15
Catholic/Attend weekly 49 50 12
Catholic/Do not attend weekly 58 40 14
All Others 63 35 42
Charles,
From the lying “so-called Deacon”, a no doubt faked exit poll from MSNBC on how Church-going Catholics voted against the Messiah Obama. The poll even has the audacity to assert that “about even” can also mean a majority for Mc Cain… Scroll down to “Church attendance by Religion”
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/26843704
The “Liar/So-called Deacon”.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/26843704
Here you go, Charles. Scroll down to “Church attendance by Religion”.
The “Liar/So-Called Deacon”.
Charles,
Just for you!
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/26843704
Scroll down to “Church Attendance by Religion”.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/26843704
Here you go Charles. Scroll down to “Church Attendance by Religion”.
The LLying “So-Called Deacon”.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/26843704
Here you go Charles. Scroll down to “Church Attendance by Religion”.
The Lying “So-Called Deacon”.
Hey Charles,
Scroll down to “Church Attendance By Religion” .
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/26843704
Lying So-Called Deacon Robert Behrens
Charles,
Scroll down to “Church Attendance By Religion”. No doubt, MSNBC is lying.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/26843704
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/26843704
Here you go, Charles Scroll down to “Church Attendance by Religion”.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/26843704
Charles,
Scroll down to “Church Attendance By Religion”.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/26843704
Scroll down to “Church Attenance By Religion”.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/26843704
Here you go, Charles.
Scroll down to “Church Attendance By Religion”.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/26843704
Here you go, Charles. Just scroll down to “Church Attendance By Religion”.
My point proven!
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/26843704
Hey, Charles,
Scroll down to “Church Attendance By Religion”.
Hello Deacon,
FINALLY!! Thank you for finally backing up your claims with facts. I appreciate you taking the time to find that and share. It does cast a bit more doubt on the CatholicVote numbers but hey, I’m not going to worry about that now.
So here we are, an exit poll that shows McCain with a one point advantage. The ‘real’ Catholics can apparently save themselves from an apocalyptic candidate after all.
See how that works? Facts are your friend! Next time I will introduce you to logic!
For the Social Kingship of Jesus Christ,
Charles
Charles,
Obviously, this poll is what Real Clear Politics had in mind in the first link I provided a few days ago, and, obviously, CatholicVote.com and Zenit were referencing another poll/polls. I am vindicated in what I asserted.
The “Lying So-Called Deacon” (Believe me Charles, I am a validly ordained Deacon).
Deacon, you are vindicated on that issue, yes.
I called you a so-called Deacon because you believe I am a so-called Catholic. (Believe me Deacon, I am a validly baptized and confirmed Catholic) even if you think I am “in my own church” or would be “more comfortable somewhere else.”
Well done Deacon.
I find it amazing that Charles misrepresents what we have said by taking our arguments and then morphing them into something which is ridiculous, to then argue his point.
Flawed, but very clever logic.
It wasn’t my intention to misrepresent anything about what you’ve said. Only to point out the flaws. But everyone can read every one of the original comments and judge for themselves, today or in the years to come. That’s what’s great about the Internet.
In particular I am pleased that anyone searching Google to find out more about “Deacon Robert Behrens” will now find this discussion as the number one result.
If this a discussion you guys are proud of, then congratulations. In Zed’s words, “Well done.”
Bashing Barack Obama, the first African American elected President, by drawing connections to Hitler and perpetrators of genocide
Well done
Telling fellow Catholics their faith is not real and then suggesting they leave the church and then denying that you did
Well done
Educating us on the creative new uses of “banking terminology”
Well done
Blaming widespread mainstream majority Catholic views on 60’s radicals who have by now “contracepted themselves out of existence”
Well done
(for you, Zed)
Failing to explain why cardinals must always be trusted as surely as “the Faith” despite their past defense of slave owners and ban on interracial marriage.
Well done
(another for Zed)
Failing to explain why cardinals must always be trusted as surely as “the Faith” despite their very recent, organized, conscious, and repeated protection, defense, and coverup of hundreds of sexual pedophiles.
Well done
And finally, bonus points for the Deacon for insisting I’d agree with him that Obama is apocalyptic if I would just read my Bible SLOWLY.
Overall, I met my objective as well. I’ve learned a lot about the divide within the church and how a guy like Stafford can call Obama “apocalypic” and get away with it (even if he did later backtrack on the “non-western” use of the word, I think we’ve also seen here definitions on this side of the divide are often flexible, maybe Stafford used to be a banker?).
Anyway I know a lot more now about Stafford’s power base, how he gets his support and how that side of instiitution thinks and defends it’s point of view.
Overall, it’s actually reassuring. Because nothing I see you guys advocating seems the least bit defensible or sustainable. It seems outdated and hateful. At least in the US I can safely assume the church will continue to move, ever so slowly, toward my position on these issues (which, for the last time, a majority of Catholics already share).
Thanks again to both of you and take care.
Charles
Zed,
Thank you for your comments. Please keep Charles in your prayers.
Deacon Robert
Deacon, nothing makes me happier than knowing you pray for me.
Pray for me Deacon, please, pray that some day I’ll understand why Obama is equivalent to the apocalypse.
Zed, please pray for me as well. Please pray that I’ll stop thinking for myself and just do as the cardinals say.
Thanks again to you both and keep me in your prayers, please.
Charles
>(another for Zed)
>Failing to explain why cardinals must always be trusted as surely as “the Faith”
>despite their very recent, organized, conscious, and repeated protection, >defense, and coverup of hundreds of sexual pedophiles.
OK Charles – since you said I failed in my explanations – I will put it CLEARER for you, in the hope that your “judgment” of me can either be sustained or refuted:
I said they (the Church hierarchy) have authority on matters of Morals & Faith. Beyond that – then it can be just an opinion. Abortion, contraception, (any sort of) fornication outside marriage are all morals aren’t they? And as an example, telling us what car to drive is an opinion! Is that too hard to understand? If you don’t trust what a particular Priest in the Church says on morals and faith, it would then be prudent to either research the matter yourself, through Church teachings, or get them to tell you where in the Church’s teaching that they base their direction.
The problem with “liberty of Conscience” - or someone saying that “Jesus told me it is OK to do this or that!” and then saying that you’re justified in a sin, has far greater ramifications than what is immediately apparent. If Jesus says one thing to one person, and something completely different to another – what is right? This assumes is that there is not ONE TRUTH but there are MANY TRUTHS. If this is the case then we have an evolving God. If God and His truth evolve with time, what yesterday was true is not true today (as you assert), and then it follows that the truth of today will not be that of tomorrow. This is a mind blowing contradiction! Therefore God would not exist!
Now you brought up a valid point – what if a Bishop/Priest etc strays. Well God’s laws are for them too in case you didn’t know. In fact even more so. As I mention in my very first post – Mark 9:41 is directed to them, “And whoever shall scandalize one of these little ones that believe in me; it were better for him that a millstone hanged around his neck, and he were cast into the sea.”
Yes – they are NOT above the law, and those protecting the perpetrators are like in civil law, an accessory to the sin. And I won’t go into the demands of the Sacrament of Penance – except to say that one has to be TRULY sorry and to make reparation, even if that is to be subject to the civil laws of the Country. And Charles, using your argument, how do YOU know that Jesus didn’t say to them that it was OK to perpetrate their sin? Are you making an assumption that they didn’t hear Jesus’ voice, when YOU do?
That is the big, big deception of Satan in having people believe in ‘Liberty of Conscience’. The whole argument of what’s right and wrong is what you end up believing it to be. So in using the ‘liberty of conscience’ stance, no person can judge anyone else’s actions. Anarchy. Totally insane!
Yes – we have had far too many weak Bishops, Archbishops and Cardinals (and I may even say some Popes) in standing up for what is the Truth in the Church, and I’m sure that was one of the deep pains that Christ contemplated when He had His agony in the garden of Gethsemane. And Christ knew that the Church he had chosen would always have betrayers (Judas), those who would deny Him (Peter) and doubters (Thomas). These were men close to Jesus and witnessed His miracles! Yet he continued with His Passion knowing that there would be multitudes that he would save.
Charles – it is not my intention to score points over you, if that is your impression. My impression of you is that you are far more intelligent and eloquent that what I am. But I believe that I am armed with the Truth, one that is clearly defined for me by the Church teachings (yet it requires much study). I believe that I have never judged you (except for you being intelligent), but have put judgment, based on my knowledge, on your views. My apologies if you thought otherwise.
Hi Zed, can you please answer some questions about what you’ve written?
Which of these are matters of “morals and faith” that require me to follow the authority of the Church hierarchy whether I agree with them or not, and which are opinion matters free for me to decide on my own (in your example, like which car to buy):
- the emancipation proclamation (whether to support it)
- interracial marriage (whether to support it)
- gay (civil only) marriage (whether to support it)
- my wife taking the pill because we already have 3 kids and only $35,000 annual income and no health insurance
- US 2008 presidential election (who to vote for)
I hope you will answer.
Thanks,
Charles
Here’s Pope IX on one of the great moral issues of all time, slavery, three years AFTER the Emancipation Proclamation:
“Slavery itself, considered as such in its essential nature, is not at all contary to the natural and divine law, and there can be several just titles of slavery, and these are referred to by approved theologians and commentators of the sacred canons … It is not contrary to the natural and divine law for a slave to be sold, bought, exchanged or given.”
So according to Zed, anyone wanting to be a “true” Catholic in 1866 would have no choice except to agree, even if support for slavery was against every moral fiber in their body. Back then supporting Abe Lincoln was sort of like a vote for Obama - APOCALYPTIC!
You see, only the hierarchy has authority to decide whether slavery is moral, because, otherwise, individuals using their own God-given consciences would result in an “evolving God.” Moral issues MUST be decided by the hierarchy.
It’s 2008 now, so please forgot about the distant, distant past examples where the moral authority of the church was completely wrong (1866, I mean all those people are dead!) Please just forget about it, and trust them now. They would never repeat mistakes they made denying rights to slaves by making even more mistakes by denying rights to gays!! Never!! It’s totally different!! Like apples and oranges!!
Listen up Catholics, on very rare occasions, to be “saved” you might need to support an evil like slavery or homophobia for a few extra decades while the church sorts itself out. That’s the price we all need to pay to avoid worshipping a false God, according to Zed. Think Jesus would agree?
Charles
To all those who defend the cardinal, if you say you represent Christ can you tell me why you don’t believe in his teachings. Because His first commandment was to love God with all your heart, and his second commandment was to love your neighbor as Christ has loved you. Calling Barack apocalyptic is showing hatred and racism. That is poison and toxic and there is nothing about love that eminates from those comments. You should be careful your true colors are showing. P.S. if you are so concerned for the unborn children, why are you not concerned for the children whose parents trusted your homosexual priests to teach about Christ, and don’t say that you are concerned because actions speak louder than words. When you don’t hold your own congregation accountable to the standards that you hold the rest of the world to, then you are seen as the hypocritcal pharises that killed Christ in the first place and used government to do so.
Charles - you are very clever in trying to entrap me.
If you did a bit of research yourself, you can find the answer out yourself. And there are valid answers to your questions, but whatever answer I give you, I have no doubt that you will throw me back another extreme example, because you speak of me in contempt.
Charles - at least have the decency to answer my questions that I have asked of you, which you have totally avoided:-
1) >>if you believe something different to what the Church teaches, then isn’t that being protestant? eg: Henry VIII, Fr. Martin Luther - they were also Baptized Catholics.
2) >> So in using the ‘liberty of conscience’ stance, no person can judge anyone else’s actions. eg: the Multiple ‘truths’ dilemma and following on from answering that - if so, why do you ‘judge’ the Cardinal if you don’t know what is in his heart? Why do you hold [orthodox thinking] Catholics in so much contempt and have judged us - do you see into my heart and conscience Charles?
Zed now you’ve got me totally confused.
You won’t answer my questions but then you accuse me of not have the decency to answer yours. I really hope you will explain which of the five examples above are considered issues of “morals and faith” and require, or should have required at the time (in the case of slavery and ban on interracial marriage) absolute obedience to the moral authority of the church.
I’m not trying to “entrap” you but a modern day Catholic defending the church’s moral absolutism even on past atrocities like slavery is pretty fascinating. I’d love to hear your explanation. Do you think slave-owning Catholics were morally justified by their pope’s defense of slavery in 1866? If not, doesn’t that blow a giant whole through your argument about “needing” to follow the moral authority of the church today? Shouldn’t they have ignored the Vatican’s tirades against the Emancipation Proclamation and fought instead to free the slaves? Would that have been acceptable? Or in your view morally corrupt?
Then you say I speak of you in contempt and judge you but then, once again, you judge yet again with the most damning judgement of all, the suggestion I am not Catholic but Protestant. Isn’t that pure, vicious unadulterated contempt for me? It’s clear from all my replies that I am sincerely hurt by the attacks on my faith. Which is, I suppose, the reason you keep doing it. Maximum contempt directed right at my heart. I AM CATHOLIC, ZED. My positions are what a majority of Catholics believe. 54% voted for Obama. We don’t think he’s apocalyptic.
As ‘A Priest’ rightly points out above, I am not just the future of the church, I AM the Church.
As for what’s in Cardinal Stafford’s heart, of course I don’t know what’s in his heart. I don’t care. I don’t know what was in Pope IX’s heart when he claimed buying and selling human beings as slaves was consistent with God’s law. I don’t care. I don’t know what was in Cardinal Law’s heart when he allegedly knowingly shuffled child rapists from parish to parish and then took a job at the Vatican to escape answering questions. I don’t care. Even if these guys had the best intentions at heart, it does not justify the destruction of countless lives and the recruitment of their congregations to aid in that destruction.
What I do know that I will not obey Cardinals and Popes on moral issues unless my conscience agrees with them. To me that’s not even a choice. I’m unable to act against my own conscience. If you can, that’s nothing to be proud of. In the past that would have meant advocating the enslavement of your fellow human beings and quietly obeying and agreeing with the Pope’s grossly offensive justifications for it.
I doubt you’ll answer this one.
It must be nice being white.
Charles
I don’t know how I found this blog, but I hope I never find it again. The election of Obama is apocalyptic? This is the biggest disappointment my family has with the Catholic Church…comments from so many priests are so completely over the top, not even remotely conected to reality. Reading the comments on this site reminded me why my family of devout Catholics beginning ~1964 or so, became non-practicing Catholics. In the late 1950’s several of my family members left the priesthood. And in the late 1940’s my uncle was sexually assaulted by a priest at his elementary school. My son spent the night in a hotel room on a class trip to the SOA last year with a priest recently arrested in NYC for kiddy porn. None of the children in my family have been baptized since 1988. We have found the church driven by these out of touch priests to be stifling our meaningful relationships with Christ. The Catholic Church has rotted from the inside out. That is the reality. Now, I find that apocalyptic.
Charles, Firstly to address “the statistics” - 54% Catholics OF THOSE WHO VOTED AND AGREED TO BE POLLED were Obama supporters - true. Look further Charles - 58% of those Obama supported DON’T ATTEND WEEKLY MASS! That should tell you something!
Oh - and there is an answer to your question regarding slaves - in short all humans should be treated with dignity, and if you would do a bit of research for yourself, you would find, to use your quote from Pope IX (which Pope is Pope IX???) “there can be several just titles of slavery, and these are referred to by approved theologians and commentators of the sacred canons..” So do your research Charles - but somehow I think that you have made up your mind already - so it is pointless me even continuing. Enough for me to say that ’slaves’ in the time of Christ were accepted as members of their host family. The ‘masters’ were under obligation to care for them, feed them, cloth them, and to treat them with fairness, and dignity. Remember the Centurian who loved and cared for his servant: “Lord, I am not worthy to have you enter under my roof; only say the word and my servant will be healed.” (Matthew 8: 5-17). Did Christ rebuke the Centurian for having a servant? Treating servants any less than with love is a sin, period. And I’m not going to justify sins that have occurred in the past, and I know that there were many. But Charles - you appear to be more interested in finding the dirt, rather than the truth. So you do the research Charles…because there are lengthy articles on it, and my ’synopsis’ would not do justice to this subject…
Oh, and by the way, why don’t you do a little more research on Abe Lincoln - who you referred to….You may be a bit surprised about what he said and did…no - you would be probably shocked….and the hint is - he had a ‘tax agenda’ on his mind - not the primary agenda of freeing of slaves. Will you only look at the superficial appearance of the truth? I hope you aren’t too bitter that you don’t research the underlying truth…
And Finally:
RE: “As ‘A Priest’ rightly points out above, I am not just the future of the church, I AM the Church.”
You ARE the Church? Your true colors have been exposed Charles.
The Catholic Church is Christ’s Church.
OK - at that assertion, it is time for me to leave this discussion permanently….
wow
I hope to proudly stand with my beloved Lord Jesus Christ in Heaven, I love him and the Blessed Virgin, Our Lord will forgive the sins of all men and women,”who seek repentance, and who are sincere”. Even the hideous crime of Infanticide, but woe to those will not only commit this crime, but support and protect it, for theirs is the kingdom of the damned.
Repent all you Children, don’t call me a racist, while you spit on Holy Mother the Church. Their rules and laws are for the Catholics, and have no bearing on how you chose to live out for sinful treacherous lives. But be warned when it is put to the vote, Catholic who are true to their faith, and Christian Scripture, will vote against the wills and desires of the heathen, atheist, and liberal, “Deal with it”..
[...] of Denver and now Major Penitentiary of the Apostolic Penitentiary in Vatican City. An excerpt from the story in the Tower, which is the student newspaper at Catholic University: His Eminence James Francis Cardinal [...]
So again…
instead of taking care of their own mess, the Catholic boys in funny dresses are seeking praise and publicity with the same subject, again and again.
I used to be a Cath, will never be again, as I am truly astounded and ashamed when I found out all the facts about the church. I am not even speaking about the thousands of molested children - I am sure everybody knows that now.
Catholic church became a well of criminals, deviants, loud-mouthed idiots, murderes, and fanatics, boiling when somebody critises the ‘Only Holy’ church. What a load of bull***it!
No other organisation in the world has ever been so rotten to the bone.
Spiritually corrupt clerics have nothing to offer people, just lies, greed, love of titles, power and fancy dresses!
Thanks God, it’s no longer 15th century - everybody can get a Bible now and see that teachings of the Catholic organisation have nothing (or a very small percent) to do with real, Christian values.
For those, who doubt - get a Bible and check yourself - don’t let anyone fool you anymore!
Those box confessions are a work of some sick mind, so is kissing all the pictures with ’saints’ on them - 1st class idolatry! Making people pray to the Pope or Mary is another Satan’s trick so you don’t praise and pray to the True Almighty God, but simple, powerless (and often dead) people!!!
Some stupid maniacs from time to time appear in newspapers spreading spiritual diseases - recent bishop-or-whoever - Williamson just an example.
During the Second World War the Catholic church (and it’s manager, the pope), has not even publicly ‘critisised’ the Nazi war, knowing well that collaboration pays well. This same church has helped MANY Nazis escape to South America through Vatican after the war was over.
What then makes them a proper, christian church?
NOTHING.
And they never were.
Now, because of some ‘power’ shifting in Vatican, they decided to choose for the next boss of the joint a man who has shaken hands with the Nazis during the war, while attending some Nazi parties.
Google all the info one by one, if you don’t believe me; it’s all there.
And yet, despite the fact that we are in 21st century and no skeletons can hide no more, the ‘black brigades’ are still trying to censor others (even here, see above).
Fanatism and lack of balanced thinking make you a very bad organisation, my dear catholic priests and popes. And definitely you’re not standing behind true christian values, let’s face facts. What matters for you is just your doctrine.
I hope God will show you some mercy when your days come to an end.
I wouldn’t count on a lot of it, though, if I were you.
Summary:
END CATHOLIC ‘CHURCH’ NOW !
Sell their valuables to feed the poor and compensate the sexually abused.
.
Refering mainly to Charles/ deacon/ Zed discussion:
How dare you (Zed) put the Bible and your catholic ‘tradition’ on the same level?
The word of God equal to some lunatic writings of some people wanting only to ensure that the Catholic church survives?
What Tradition are we speaking of?
Tradition of prosecuting Copernicus, Columbus, Newton, Joanna d’Arc (to death, as often happened) and so many more; killing -actually: murdering- all Muslims in Jerusalem and around while ’spreading faith’ or something else?
Great amount of political murders (by Jesuits and the rest of your folk)?
Tradition of collaborating with the Nazis, child molestation and extensive work on covering it up?
Don’t desperately push your empty , fleshy Catechisms on Charles to subdue him to the ‘teachings’!
And definitely don’t make any sure connections with Jesus and the beggining of Christianity with your catholic church - it’s not one and the same thing; your church is not ‘over 2000 years old’.
There are Christian churches who can actually make that connection - yours is not one of them.
And remember that only God can save people, not a church. And be sure that He loves everybody equally: lesbians, gays, married priests (as it should be - described in the Bible), Obama, and all whores on this planet, as long as they come to him. He loves even you, people, however religious and indoctrinised you are.
So don’t turn His message around!
I don’t have more time to waste, so my last thought:
Charles was bravely opened his mouth and - here we go! Many of you were ready to stone him, or at least prove how ignorant or shallow he is on this forum.
This is so sad…
You will never kill the human need of knowledge again, ever!
As I said, I’m not a Catholic anymore; never will be again.
People like Charles, not so narrow-minded and willing to learn and follow the message of Christ instead of your sorry doctrine, would probably make your church stronger and attract some more people. I might have stayed there, was it full of so minded believers. And real, biblical teachings.
Bravo Charles.
I do also respect Priest’s comments.
Your ‘gospel’, however, full of hate, accusations and discrimination, full of false prophecies and prophets, will not stand its test. It should collapse like a carton box under a bus. I will pray to God for it, for should not be misleading common people any longer.
Lucifer was smart, too. He had his pride, too. A big one. And yet he fell…
You are trying to undermine God’s word with your Traditions and Catechisms.
They don’t go together at all.
One of you said the church’s hierarchy has authority on morals and faith.
No, they don’t.
Only GOD and the BIBLE HAVE THE AUTHORITY ON THESE AND ALL OTHER MATTERS.
Zed says that some ideas smell or shine ‘ Protestant’ to him.
Who has given you or your church the authority to judge or raise yourself above other christian churches?
I’d say it’s quite the other way around, you idols’ worshippers!
Again, pride, pride, pride… and idiot’s way of thinking.
But the way you’re thinking I blame on the Catholic team of ‘teachers’.
After all, they have indoctrinised you with their garbage.
I just hope that you will personally find God someday, and if you seek him, you will…
May God open his blessings to you and to all reading this post.
I really mean it.